The Power of Feedback: Building Trust and Leadership

[00:00:00] Mo Fathelbab: Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, president of International Facilitators Organization, People and Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives in the field of human resources. Each week we bring you in-depth conversations with the country's top HR executives.

And thought leaders for today's conversation. I'm excited to be joined by Lauren Fast, chief people officer, at iS Clinical, we'll be talking about creating transparency and cultural alignment in the workplace during times of uncertainty. Welcome, Lauren.

[00:00:42] Lauren Fast: Thank you Mo. Great to be here.

[00:00:44] Mo Fathelbab: Great to have you with us. Lauren, I wanna start with, your career journey. Tell us how you got into the field of HR.

[00:00:51] Lauren Fast: Yeah, so, you know, I came into HR rather un traditionally. I began my career mostly in operations, leadership and, you know, management of operational teams. And interestingly, I had a little bit of a career changeover where we lost our HR in California amidst a.

Pretty intense period back on, I'm sure you remember 2008 and the whole recession and all the havoc that wreaked in the workplace. And so we actually lost our HR at that time and I had a Boston-based company that I worked for who really didn't understand California law. So I ended up becoming the, you know, the ad hoc HR liaison and you know, did a bunch of research and of course.

Liability is a big thing, obviously, and where California allows managers to be personally liable for things that you make mistakes in, in employment. And it was really important to me that the employment laws and practices were actually aligned. And so that was kind of how I got my jumpstarts a little untraditional.

But I like to say that the reality is. It's that intersection of people and process and efficiency, and you really have the opportunity to transform an organization and make it culturally aligned and make everything cleaner and clearer and more transparent and more friendly, and also be effective and hit that bottom line.

And so it's really the spot where you can have the most impact.

[00:02:14] Mo Fathelbab: So you haven't looked back since?

[00:02:16] Lauren Fast: I have not looked back since. I'm about 17 years in now, and it's gonna keep on going.

[00:02:20] Mo Fathelbab: Good, well, we're happy to have you keep going 'cause I know you have a lot to share with us today. And, also we're in tons of, of economic uncertainty.

And according to SHRM's, recent CHRO economic outlook, more than half of HR executives anticipate poor or very poor economic conditions over the next six months. What. Is important. What are you hearing amongst your HR peers right now? that they're doing strategically to deal with these times of uncertainty?

[00:02:53] Lauren Fast: You are definitely right. There is a lot of uncertainty out there, and in talking to my peers, interestingly, the biggest concern right now is how do you maintain cultural alignment and how do you keep the team engaged? When you're in the middle of things like cost cutting measures or reductions in staff, you are potentially slow downs where you're reducing hours or doing furloughs.

There's been a lot of discussion about that. Creative ways that you can keep your staff engaged and keep them involved in the culture and feeling invigorated and you know, like this is a place they want to be when we're in the middle of so much uncertainty and the business has to make really tough decisions.

[00:03:30] Mo Fathelbab: I can't wait for your, for your tips and tricks. So it's a tough time. People have, you know, in many cases the general. fear, malaise maybe because of, of the uncertainty. So how do we make it so that this is actually a meaningful time culturally and people are still motivated and energized?

[00:03:50] Lauren Fast: I think it really comes back to transparency.

You know, companies have this tendency to keep that stuff under, under wraps. You want to tell your employees everything's fine. They know it's not. They see everything around them just like we do. They see the uncertainty in the marketplace. They see the uncertainty in the workforce. They know things are not nearly as stable as maybe they wish they were, and so by sugarcoating it or telling them, oh, everything's going to be okay, and then two weeks later you turn around and do a layoff.

That's not genuine and that doesn't show that transparent leadership that people are really looking for. And so the key that's really been circulating among the people I've been speaking with and also in my own experiences with my own company, is really around how do you tell people what's really going on, give them enough information to process so that they don't feel like they're in the dark, and they understand that when these tough decisions come, we were transparent with them.

We were upfront that some tough decisions might need to be made.

[00:04:47] Mo Fathelbab: You have a great story about that, I'd love for you to share it with our audience.

[00:04:51] Lauren Fast: Yeah, absolutely. So in the last economic interesting period we had during COVID, it seems like we've had a lot of those in the last 10 years, but we went through a stage where the company I was working for at the time had a very difficult decision to make because they were in some real financial stress and, you know, things were not going nearly as well as was the case for many companies.

Unfortunately the result was that the CEO felt he would probably need to lay off a good portion of the staff and was really lamenting that, you know, this is affecting people's lives. This isn't just a job, it isn't just a, you know, thanks for your time and goodbye. And so in working with him, I talked through how, you know, maybe there's another alternative.

Maybe if we talk to the whole company and we tell them what's going on, we explain the financial hardship and then ask them to help each other. So what I posed to him was, let's do a reduction in salary instead, and let's give the employees the option. Let them be part of the choice, because then they're empowered to choose to keep their coworkers employed and to choose to take that pay cut, to be able to help everybody stay on longer.

Of course that came with, you know, the uncertainties that it normally does. We're like, well, really, should we really do that? But ultimately, we did it, and the outcome was phenomenal. The team pulled together, everybody unanimously agreed that yes, they would rather take a reduction in pay than lose their coworkers or their own job.

That bought the company quite a bit more time for people to really look for other things or figure out what their path forward was, where otherwise they would've just been without work. And so I think that transparency and trust is so key.

[00:06:32] Mo Fathelbab: So I love that. I do have a follow up though, which is why do you think so many companies are afraid to be so transparent? Because, you know, sometimes that is not how it goes down.

[00:06:43] Lauren Fast: Very true. And I've been in those situations too. And the reality I think is we've got this hierarchy, especially in the US but in many other organizations and other countries too, where it's a need to know basis. So there's information that you keep at the top level and you don't tell anybody.

Like for instance, let's say you're doing a large layoff, usually you will tell your people literally the day that the WARN Act requires you to, you're not going to tell them ahead of time. That I think is a mistake because we are, we fear what's going to happen, but I think there's ways to phrase it where if we're empathetic and we're open and we explain the things we don't know meant, I think that's the other barriers.

Well, we don't know all the details yet. We don't know who it will affect. We don't know how it will affect things, so we're just going to wait until we have everything buttoned up. But then you don't give people enough time to process their emotions and process their feelings around it. And so I think it's okay for leaders to say, I don't know yet, but we're working on it.

And I think that's the key, is there's that fear of feeling like, well, as a leader I should know, I shouldn't say something if I don't know. And we need to normalize people being able to stand up and say, you know what? Here's the situation. We're working through it. I don't know all the details yet, but as soon as we do, we will tell you and we will help you guide through this. Like it's okay to not know.

[00:08:02] Mo Fathelbab: And it's also okay to have bad news, right? And be transparent and honest.

[00:08:07] Lauren Fast: Absolutely. I mean, that's the, I mean, obviously no one wants bad news, right? And you don't want to be the person who brings bad news. But people know when things are unsettled. They know when things are uncertain, and by validating what they already know in their head, you actually bring them in and make them more part of the team and more part of the organization because they feel like I'm part of this big thing with everybody else.

It's not just me feeling this way.

[00:08:32] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So you wrote an interesting article for the SHRM executive, network that recently talked about why it's important for HR leaders to be a sounding board and an executive coach to their CEO. for those that haven't had a chance to read it yet, and it's an excellent article, please tell us a little bit about what, what, why that's important.

[00:08:53] Lauren Fast: Yeah, so I think the big thing I always hear, especially in the HR groups, is how do I get a seat at the table, right? How do I get my voice heard? How do I have an impact on the organization? And I've taken a little bit of a different strategy to this throughout my career, and that's to help set that table.

To really dive in and become that trusted confidant. And that's not an overnight process. That's a ability to insert yourself slowly by talking, being available, letting them bounce things off of you, making yourself a resource and being helpful. Even sometimes with questions that aren't HR related, it's really being that sounding board because when you're a leader, especially at the C level, who do you get to talk to?

Really no one. There's so many things that you know that you really can't share sometimes not even with your colleagues at the C level, depending upon what your position is. And so having someone who is a trusted confidant who does not break your confidence and who can provide that grounding and that empathetic place to vent frustrations that we all have, no matter our role, it gives you that ability to gain trust and respect and help in so much more than just HR.

And that really, I think, is key because. And that's often overlooked.

[00:10:08] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. So how have you gone about building that connection with the CEO? Maybe give us some of the breadcrumbs for those that that haven't managed to be so good at it.

[00:10:19] Lauren Fast: Yeah, definitely. So initially, the first thing, obviously, is establishing yourself when you first come in.

The first period of time is establishing yourself as a trusted and respected leader because you're new and people don't know whether they can trust you or not. And the biggest thing that I've found to be the best way is to just be authentic. You know, be open, be honest. Be there. Show up. There's a lot of meetings that we don't technically have to attend, but especially in the beginning, show up to them anyway.

Because the more you learn about the business and how it operates outside of the HR arena, the more you can understand the bigger picture that affects the people. So if, for instance, you have an operational leader and they have struggles or they have concerns going on, if you don't know their people, you really can't help them.

But if you attend those meetings, you walk around, you talk to the staff, and the other thing is, I would call it humble bragging. people don't know what you've done unless you tell them. And we have such a culture of, oh, people will notice, just don't say anything. Or the opposite extreme where they're telling you every single thing they did every single day.

Neither are the right balance. You really need that balance of letting that CEO know, Hey, I talked to the operational leader today and here's what I was, you know, coming up with and here's what I shared. And it seems like there might be some struggles, but they're working on it. And then the other side of that is really going through to how do we manage those relationships and make sure that people are able to really understand that.

It's okay to vent. It's okay to open up. It's okay to not always have the answer, and that does develop over time, but it's really about being there and showing up.

[00:12:00] Mo Fathelbab: And you mentioned the word empathy a few times. What does it feel like? What does it look like when it's real empathy versus what might come across as as pretend empathy?

[00:12:12] Lauren Fast: That's very fair. I think real empathy comes from being able to connect. The key thing is listening. We have to be able to listen. I think a lot of times we are thinking of what we're going to say in response while hearing what the person is saying. And you can notice that when someone does that, you can tell that they're not really listening.

It's really that first bridge is listening, that active listening to let them get out what they need to get out. You know, wait for them to prompt a response and really actually having that care, letting them know that it's okay for them to feel the way they feel. It's okay for them to be uncertain or to not have the answer, or to, you know, feel some frustration that is natural and normal, then you can move on to resolving it.

But that connection of listening to people and truly caring about what they have to say is probably the best tip I could give for how to show real empathy.

[00:13:09] Mo Fathelbab: I love that. So when it comes to transparency, you said you believe transparency is both about sharing information and building trust. What strategies can HR leaders use to build trust in the workplace?

[00:13:25] Lauren Fast: So the first thing is I think that communication is a big, big thing that is missed. Often people want to hear from you. They want to hear more frequently than we probably think. And a lot of companies will do like a quarterly town hall or a quarterly newsletter. It's not enough. They want to see presence out in the workplace.

They want to feel like they have a human connection. And so even as simple, and it really does sound simple as walking around and stopping in with different team members. Any department, doesn't matter. Any level of the organization. Checking in with them, finding out how their day is going, building that bridge of trust because those little interactions add up over time.

It may be five minutes here, five minutes there, but over time, the next thing you know, six months later, they'll come and tell you how much you impacted them and how much you made them feel like they had a safe place they could go, and then they will share things that are going on that need your attention because they already feel safe because you were present and available.

[00:14:22] Mo Fathelbab: That makes sense to me. So the other thing you talk about is feedback. what role does feedback play in building trust?

[00:14:30] Lauren Fast: Feedback is essential. It's interesting. There's some studies I was looking at, and it's surprising how much managers feel that feedback is not wanted by their team. But the reality is that their team, by and large, wants especially negative feedback or constructive feedback more than anything else because they want to know what they need to correct.

[00:14:54] Mo Fathelbab: I have so noticed that people often don't wanna do this feedback stuff, and then when it starts and when it over, they appreciate. I hate to call it negative, let's call it constructive feedback. Yes, that's right. That's what they appreciate more.

[00:15:09] Lauren Fast: Yeah, they really do. And I think there's that negative connotation when people hear the word feedback.

It is never negative, constructive feedback is a gift. It really lets you grow and analyze what you're doing and analyze how you're behaving or what it impact is on other people and the perspective other people have. And we're not mind readers. We don't know. We can't just automatically imagine, oh, they must be thinking this or that, but we will.

We'll think that in our head and it could be totally wrong. And so being able to just, you know, break that barrier even if you think it won't be received well. It's really our duty as leaders to give that feedback and to let people have an opportunity to make corrections or to get better, or even to uplevel for a new role or a new responsibility.

It all starts with that feedback.

[00:15:58] Mo Fathelbab: You said feedback is a gift. I'd love for you to expound upon that because I could see it being a gift on many levels, but, let's dig into that a little bit. What are the ways in which feedback is a gift?

[00:16:10] Lauren Fast: I'll actually give you an example based on a story from a recent interaction I had.

So we had an employee where the leader has been speaking to me, and this is the senior level executive leader. They've been speaking to me about their struggles with this employee and how their performance is really getting to a point where they're not able to see a path forward for them. They do think they have a lot of potential, but behavioral issues are really causing ruckus with the team.

And so I, I've been coaching that leader about giving direct feedback, explaining the issues to the person. They said, well, I've been coaching them ongoing, but it's just not changing. So finally I had a conversation with them just a couple weeks ago and discussed that. I'm going to give you very direct feedback because this is now going to affect your career, and I want to make sure that you've heard the feedback your manager has been giving you before they take the next steps.

And the manager asked me to do this, so I wasn't stepping on their toes, but they just thought a different perspective might help. So I did step in and gave the person that direct feedback and explained, here are the performance concerns. These concerns are not going to lead to a promotion. They will likely lead to a career ending event at this organization.

Because these are major, they're affecting the whole team. They're causing negativity, they're causing, you know, feelings of being unsupported. And these things are not good for team cohesion. They really need to change. I was ready. I went in ready for, you know, a lot of resistance and a lot of argument, and instead they took a beat.

Then they admitted that, you know what? I think I really have been a lot more resistant and unwilling to work with the team. You know, I was used to being an individual contributor. I didn't really have a team, and being on one is weird and doesn't really feel comfortable, but I don't want this to be a roadblock, and I didn't know that that's how people felt.

I didn't know that people around me even noticed how I felt. It was a tremendously uplifting conversation in the end where they committed to changing their behavior, turning it around, reaching out to their colleagues, and you know, making sure they build bridges so that that is not the perception, because they do really want to be part of that team.

They just didn't realize their hesitance and uncomfortableness was showing up to the team as though they didn't want to contribute.

[00:18:30] Mo Fathelbab: You remind me. I had a team member years ago who really needed some tough feedback. And, and of course we have to do it kindly, and we're getting to that in a minute. We have to do it kindly because at the end of the day, we're looking for good results.

It's not a, it's not an opportunity to hurt someone's feelings. That's not the intention. But, literally 15 years after the fact, I got a letter from, from this guy and it said, thank you for holding me accountable to my personality. I'm a much better person because of it. And what a, what a lovely thing to see.

So what are the elements of feedback that make it effective?

[00:19:07] Lauren Fast: I think the first thing is, as you mentioned, being kind. Just because you have something tough to say doesn't mean it needs to be said in a way that will hurt someone's feelings or come across as harsh. And so really taking emotion out of it is the best approach.

You know, if you are upset, that is the wrong time to get feedback. You calm down, you wait until you have fought it out, make yourself some notes. It's amazing how much. Putting down just some bullet points of what you need to convey to the person really helps to guide the conversation because it's easy, especially if they are perceptive to get off track.

And so really honing back in, you know, I'm, I'm really sorry that you don't feel this way, but I do need to share this with you. So if you could just give me a moment to finish through here. You know, be empathetic, be kind, but get across the message. Don't let it get derailed. And the second piece I think that is most important is give them actual expectations.

It's one thing to say, oh, I need you to fix this, this, and this. But it's very different to say, I'm here to support you in improving these things. Here's the things that need to be improved. Here's what I'd like to see from you in the next month, in the next two months, and I want to check in with you frequently and use me as a resource.

Let me help you. We want you to succeed, and that's really that tone that matters.

[00:20:26] Mo Fathelbab: That sounded great. So why do so many organizations have a tough time getting people to accept this process of going through feedback?

[00:20:38] Lauren Fast: I think there's inherent fear of feedback and when we go all the way back to even childhood, right?

Every time someone's like, Hey, I need to tell you something, you get this little sort of PTSD feeling of, Ooh, it's probably bad. I probably did something wrong. Maybe I'm in trouble. And I think the best thing organizations can do to make it easier is to make feedback consistent and a frequent part of the culture so that it is not.

Always constructive. Often it can be positive, it can be uplifting, it can be kudos for something they did well, and it becomes this feedback loop where they're also invited to give feedback to their leaders. So their leaders can hear from them, how can I do better? How can I make more of an impact for you?

How can I help ease your work life? Those things are really important to make it part of the whole conversation. I think there's just this fear that, oh, they're not going to be receptive. They won't want to hear it any way, or, oh, they already know. I'm sure they're just ignoring it. Trust me, they don't know.

Nine times out of 10, they really don't. And even sometimes when they're not receptive, initially they'll think about it for a little bit and then like yours, where 15 years later they'll come back and say, you know what? That had a tremendous impact. I really needed that in the moment.

[00:21:56] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. And how, when you say in the moment, so some organizations do feedback once a quarter, once a year. You're proposing something else?

[00:22:04] Lauren Fast: I am. So there's the idea of having, like, let's, let's say this is your path, right? And, and this is the person veering off of the path. So the person goes off the path, right? If you catch it right away, right When that initial issue happens, it's not a habit yet, it's a non-issue.

It's very easy. You can give them that initial feedback, Hey, I noticed this was going like this. It actually should be this way. Instead, just wanted to bring it to your attention. Obviously if they continue to do it the incorrect way, you need to escalate that and readdress it. But most of the time it only takes a couple times of addressing it and you'll get them back on track.

But if you let it go for six months, three months a year, you end up with a situation where the employee is sitting there going, why didn't you say this one? The one of the first 10 times I did this? I've been doing this forever, and now it's a problem. It wasn't a problem for a year or three months or six months, and that really sets up an adversarial conversation when it didn't need to be that way.

And so I, yes, I am proposing, absolutely. Feedback in the moment is critical. The first time you notice something, obviously not when you're upset, but. You calm down if there is any type of emotional reaction, and then you give them that feedback right away in a kind and gentle manner so that they can hear it and they understand you're not angry with them, you're not upset.

This isn't the end of the world. It's just a little thing they can adjust to do a better job or to do something the correct way. And that gives much better results than trying to correct it when it's been going on for a long time.

[00:23:42] Mo Fathelbab: I think that's great. And what do you suggest for the receiver of that feedback? What do we need to think about as receivers to be good receivers?

[00:23:51] Lauren Fast: This is a really important topic that's near and dear to my heart because I myself struggled with receiving feedback much earlier in my career. It was a really tough time and you, you'd get feedback and you sit there and go, how dare they, you know, they don't understand how tough my job is.

I try my best and you rationalize it in your head. It is really hard to step back and go, wait a second, am I a part of this? Is there a way that I can make this better? Is there a way that I could improve this situation? Is what they're saying valid? And so being a good receiver of feedback really is giving people the opportunity to tell you when things aren't perfect, and being able to take that and internalize it and think it through before reacting.

Because we may have an initial emotional reaction, but if we give it a moment we think it through, then we can really take the emotions out and analyze was this feedback valid? Was there something in what they said that I could correct? You know, was there something that I needed to pay attention to? But I think we often react and then it's too late because we feel like, oh, we already reacted.

We can't go back now and say, oh, you know what? You had a point. So really curtailing that reaction, I think is the best part. Realizing that feedback is not negative. It actually is a gift because it's meant to help us grow. It's hard to give someone feedback because you don't know how they'll take it.

So if someone has the courage to do that, they really are giving you a gift.

[00:25:21] Mo Fathelbab: And, and to the extent that, I'm receiving feedback, I, you know, the first thing I say is, thank you. Yes. What an opportunity. You could have said nothing.

[00:25:32] Lauren Fast: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:32] Mo Fathelbab: And I would continue doing whatever it is that is really not good for me.

[00:25:36] Lauren Fast: Right? A hundred percent. And that is, I think the beauty of that transformation in our own minds as receivers of feedback is realizing that they didn't have to say anything, but they did because obviously they care. If someone didn't care, they would just let you fail. They would never say a thing. So the fact that they actually got up the courage to say something in and of itself shows that they do care, even if the feedback wasn't something we wanted to hear.

[00:26:03] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. and what's another downside of waiting a year?

[00:26:09] Lauren Fast: The, so the other major downside is personal frustration. So if you're a leader and you see this person doing something incorrectly over and over, it just, it builds up, we're human, it builds up and we get frustrated. Why are they doing it wrong? And maybe you've mentioned it nonchalantly a couple times, but they never understood that you were really trying to correct it.

They thought it was just a preference. So you just sit there and go, I've mentioned it, and they don't care. They're just continuing to do this thing, and then when you finally do give that feedback, you explode because it's just built up and we've all, we all have stories of a boss who did this, or a manager who did this in our past, like they just explode.

Like, you never do this, right? You've always been doing this terrible, I can't believe you haven't understood how to do it better. That's not positive or constructive for anyone, let alone just the manager themselves, because you're sitting on all this frustration that makes you less effective and takes away your brain power from other things that you could be focused on.

And so that is a big danger of waiting.

[00:27:12] Mo Fathelbab: And I would imagine that also creates an environment where feedback is not as likely to be welcomed.

[00:27:18] Lauren Fast: Absolutely. Because if that's the only time they get it, guess what? They are going to fear feedback because those stories will get around the office, they'll get around the workplace, and the next thing you know, everyone is worried that, oh no, if, if Mo calls me into the office, I better run, it's gonna be bad.

[00:27:36] Mo Fathelbab: So let's talk about the power of feedback. How can the right feedback shape. High potential employees.

[00:27:44] Lauren Fast: I think the real power in feedback is giving people opportunity to grow, and most people don't want to stay in the role they're in forever. They want to learn how to succeed and how to get ahead, how to move up.

It's really important then to help shape them because the behaviors that you learn, no matter what your position in an organization, the way that you interact interpersonally, the way that you dedicate yourself to your work, you know, the ability to really stay on task and be congenial and collaborative, those things don't just magically appear in most people.

They're learned. They're learned by hearing from others how they should act or modeling others' behavior. And so if you wanna create the leaders of the future. It starts with your very lowest levels all the way through to your top, because you never know who might be your star of tomorrow. And so we really need to invest in everyone with that feedback to let them grow.

[00:28:37] Mo Fathelbab: I love that. Lauren, what a great conversation. Last question for you. What is one piece of advice that has shaped your work or personal life?

[00:28:46] Lauren Fast: I was actually going for a promotion once, way back in my career. Didn't get it, and was very, very upset about the person who did. You know, my metrics are so much better.

Why did they get it? And I had a manager who actually sat me down and said, do you want the truth or do you want something to make you feel better? And I, I told him I wanted the truth, and he told me, your internal employees and colleagues are your customers too. So those interactions you have every day, being friendly, sparing them a smile, all of those things matter just as much as the external customers for the organization because those internal employees are your customers too.

And so I think that is probably the, the thing I would say has carried with me the most.

[00:29:34] Mo Fathelbab: We will remember that message. The internal employees are your customers too, and that's where we'll end it for this episode of People and Strategy. A huge thanks to Lauren for your valuable insights. You can follow the People and Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

Also podcast reviews have a real impact on a podcast visibility. So if you enjoyed today's episode, leave a review to help others find the show. Finally, you could find all our episodes on our website at SHRM dot org slash podcasts. Thank you for listening and have a great day.