Executive Influence: How to Get to ‘Yes’

[00:00:00] Mo Fathelbab: Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, president of International Facilitators Organization, People and Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives in the field of human resources. Each week we bring you in-depth conversations with the country's stop, HR executives and thought leaders.

[00:00:28] For today's conversation, I'm excited to be joined by Brad Winn, professor of leadership and Strategy in the Huntsman School of Business and Executive MBA director at Utah State University. We'll be talking about executive influence. Welcome, Brad.

[00:00:43] Brad Winn: Oh, thank you. It's an honor to be here. And Mo it's great to be with you.

[00:00:47] Mo Fathelbab: Great to be with you, Brad. Brad, let's start with, tell us about your career journey and what brought you to the executive space.

[00:00:54] Brad Winn: That's an interesting question. speaking of strategy, my career has, taken a lot of winding turns. And, as we all know, in trying to design strategy, it doesn't always turn out the way you think.

[00:01:07] So I didn't start out to become an executive, but I have always had an interest in. Groups and companies and organizations. I, did an, undergrad degree in engineering at Purdue. I did a PhD at the University of Michigan, and my first gig after Michigan was with a consulting firm, that I did two C-suite gigs, at two different companies.

[00:01:33] And then I did some public service. I actually worked for the Utah Governor's office, and I was an elected legislator. And the Utah House of Representatives for a while. it just an opportunity to try and have some influence to, try and make a difference in a positive way. And those were great experiences as well.

[00:01:53] Mo Fathelbab: Well, it sounds like you've had a lot of influence and you're currently teaching an MBA course on executive influence and influence is important when gaining buy-in for new initiatives. Why does this continue to be a challenge for leaders? Well, fundamentally.

[00:02:10] Brad Winn: We all love other people to change. and, we, tend to, it is just a basic human need to want security and stay in our comfort zone.

[00:02:21] And so trying to make change or trying to implement something new, typically is a leader telling others they need to change. And so that's always a challenge, right? but I would say that, maybe one way to do that is two, two key things that I teach in my executive influence class with my MBA students.

[00:02:47] First of all, the number one principle that I hope that they'll learn is the art of listening. The best way to understand how to craft. Moving stakeholders together or getting an agreement is to understand the other needs, right? And try and find some commonality. And then I would say the second thing I try and teach my students is to prepare.

[00:03:13] So this would be, very, applicable not only to MBA students, but to our audience here today. If you're trying to move an initiative, try and understand. The others that need to move with you, what their needs, what their, aspirations are, and also prepare well, and, what I always say, to my students is there are five key things that you need to do when you prepare.

[00:03:41] You wanna be very clear about what your aspiration is, and then you want to try and do some research and guess what their aspirations are. Okay. And then, and by the way, these are the ABCs. So we're gonna start with a B, I teach them about your batna. Now, BATNA is an acronym, B-A-T-N-A. Many of you have heard this.

[00:04:04] the best alternative to a negotiated, agreement, agreement and. that means what's your next best option because you don't wanna take the deal in front of you if there's a better option somewhere else. And we sometimes get caught in the emotion and go with things that we shouldn't. So that's B. C is the principle of cut and run.

[00:04:28] It's okay to say no to an agreement that's in front of you, or to say, pause. So that's the cut and run. the principle and then D is what I've mentioned before, is what are what? When someone comes to you and they say, this is my position. I either wanna run with you on this new initiative, if I'm a CHRO or senior Hr leader, if, I want them to run with me, they're probably gonna come and say, this is my position. And typically what that has is very few degrees of freedom because my position's here, their position is here. And if you can dig into their d deep interests, underneath their position. So why do you held that position?

[00:05:16] What are the key things that are your fears? Maybe your concerns, maybe your aspirations that drive you to that position. So get underneath that with the understanding their, deep interests. And then sometimes, one way to try

and, bring people together, different stakeholders is to look for external standards somewhere.

[00:05:39] So for instance, if I'm negotiating to buy a car, I might go to Blue Book. Right. Particularly if it's, some someplace that we can put a peg in the ground that we can then negotiate around. So those are the DR wind's, easy sneezy ABCs of, bringing people together and looking at, how to get agreement, how to get to, yes, as we call it.

[00:06:04] Mo Fathelbab: You also talk about organizational psychology. how does. Positive organizational psychology play into getting a collective Yes. From stakeholders.

[00:06:14] Brad Winn: So it's interesting. the field of organizational psychology, originally started with taking dysfunctional psychology and bringing it back to functional.

[00:06:26] I would say the same thing in medical science, bringing physical dysfunction back to physical function. There's many areas where that's what the research does. but positive psychologies looked at the other side of the curb. How do I go from functional to thriving to being in the zone to an elevated psychological state?

[00:06:53] And I think that has a lot to do with, making a great leader is getting yourself into that elevated psychological state. Now,

[00:07:04] my, my, area of study is organizational behavior. So our, level of analysis is not the individual person, it's the organization. And so we, in organizational studies, decided to copy psychology, positive psychology and look at organizations that are on the other side of the curve.

[00:07:27] So we're going out there looking for. Extraordinary functioning of, organizations and trying to bring that back and say, what are the resources in my company or your company that we can use to get to that thriving level or that the extraordinary level.

[00:07:45] Mo Fathelbab: I think that is really wonderful. Positive psychology has had a huge impact on my life on a personal level.

[00:07:52] And to see that, there's an organizational aspect to it, makes, perfect sense. So, Brad, you mentioned you have four questions for positive organizational psychology. What are those four questions to live by?

[00:08:05] Brad Winn: So, this comes from Bob Quinn, a fantastic Michigan professor. And it comes from an article that he wrote in Harvard Business Review and elsewhere on the elevated state, psychological state of leaders and, the way that you get yourself, one way you can get yourself into that elevated psychological state to be a more influential leader is to ask yourself four key questions.

[00:08:34] And Mo these questions are easy enough that you can memorize these. Okay, so I'll, there'll be a quiz at the end here, so get ready. So question number one could be, who am I? But I'm gonna rephrase it. I'm gonna say question number one is what result do I want to create? And there's two key words there, result and create.

[00:08:55] So when I. Say, go to a C-suite meeting or a very important, meeting with someone. I wanna be really clear what is the result. I don't wanna get sidetracked. I wanna be very focused on the result that I want to create. And lemme just talk about creation for a minute. There is, there are very few things in this life that are more meaningful to human beings than the act of creation, creating something new.

[00:09:26] So this, idea of unleashing the creative power of our people in our organizations is so important and, allowing them the space to do that and recognizing their, opportunity to create something new to innovate. So of question number one, what result do I want to create? Question number two, am I internally directed?

[00:09:52] You think of the great, leaders of the past. They lived in a very hierarchical probably situation like all of us do from time. We're a child. We learned very carefully to listen to authority, to listen to, what's going on around us. To be a little bit risk averse, to protect ourselves, but the great leaders.

[00:10:17] Step out of that box and are internally motivated. This comes not from a directive. Great leadership and the creative forces come from inside, from our own passion, from things that, excite our hearts and our minds, those ideas. So question number two. Am I internally mo motivated? Question number three, am I other focused?

[00:10:44] I remember, being a leader, It was very clear to my people when an initiative that I was bringing was something that would elevate and help Brad win versus help the organization and, that is something that comes out eventually. So think about your initiatives. Is it about you or is it about a greater cause?

[00:11:08] So am I other focused? Is this notion of. Being focused on something greater than yourself, the, greater cause. And finally, question number four. Am I open? Am I externally open to feedback? Okay. So when I was first married and my wife gave me some initial feedback, initially those walls came up, my defenses came up, and of course I wasn't wrong.

[00:11:37] So this is what we see in great leaders who continue to be great leaders because they are exter externally open to, to feedback. And that goes back to your point, mo the listening, right? So listening, learning, redeveloping yourself. Question number four, am I externally open to feedback? So Mo, I won't give you the quiz right now, but the four questions are what result do I want to create?

[00:12:07] Am I internally directed? Am I other focused? And am I open to external feedback? And those four questions, if I. If I put those into my, brain as I'm going into a high stakes kind of setting will elevate my psychological state and give me a, new sense of psychological influence.

[00:12:31] Mo Fathelbab: do you find any resistance to any of those questions amongst great leaders?

[00:12:35] Does hearing that model suffice for having somebody become open to feedback when they hadn't been open to feedback? So,

[00:12:47] Brad Winn: I think there are, most leaders would perhaps agree in to those questions. In theory. Many of them would have blind spots and they think they're doing those kinds of things and accepting those kinds of things. And some of them might just reject those. I mean, we've seen leaders who, would, reject some of those, those, notions particular maybe the.

[00:13:13] The open to feedback, one, and I think there's a balance there, Mo I think some, we have to be careful with feedback. I think it's, we need to listen to feedback, but we don't need to just accept it carte blanc. I think we need to reflect on that feedback and sometimes we move forward even, though it's going against that feedback.

[00:13:36] But I think taking that moment to pause and consider that, and frankly. the, research shows that the leaders that sustain themselves over time, are those that, that can listen to feedback, can take that and can reinvent themselves.

[00:13:58] Mo Fathelbab: You know, the great doctor, David Bradford from Stanford, graduate School of Business, says feedback is as much about the giver of the feedback as it is.

[00:14:08] The receiver. But of course if you get the same feedback from 10 people, it's a lot more about the receiver than it is about the government.

[00:14:16] Brad Winn: Great point.

[00:14:17] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah, absolutely love it. So, another challenge leaders face is how to navigate organizational politics. What are some of the most common workplace politics challenges that you've seen leaders face?

[00:14:29] I'm sure you've seen a bunch.

[00:14:32] Brad Winn: So, we all live in. Financial issues in, organizations. We live, with social, we live with functional and we all live with political, political, impacts in our work life and our general life. I'd like to maybe step back and, mention something that I learned when I was serving in the House of Representatives as a legislator.

[00:14:58] So, my first day on the job, the speaker of the house came to me and said. Representative Winn, let me give you a tip. The tip is that you need to get 51% of the house. You need to get 51% of the Senate, and you need to get one governor to agree otherwise you are ineffectual. And he said what that means in the state of Utah is you need to get one more than half of the 75.

[00:15:26] House members, one more than half of the 29 senators and one governor. That means you need to get 38, 15 and one and never forget that you can have the worst idea in the world. If you have 38, 15 and one, you can get money passed and you can get law passed. If you have the best idea in the world and you don't have 38 50 in one, you got nothing.

[00:15:48] So, that's a very, functional approach to politics and I think. That lesson can be, have some application in other settings in our organizations. I think it's very important to understand who, who it is that we need to get agreement from. To look at those who are gonna be your champions. Make sure that they understand and, are on board and look at those that may have concerns about the initiative that you wanna bring or the direction that you're trying to go and be a pretty good nose calendar.

[00:16:24] Okay, so that would be, my, my one lesson I would say on politics. I think there are many others. I think, candor and, Trustworthiness, I think being real, sometimes are some of the best anecdotes for, pure political influence.

[00:16:46] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. A and Brad, you've already shared a lot, with us on negotiation.

[00:16:51] Any advice that you would give to leaders to better negotiate through these moments?

[00:16:56] Brad Winn: Yeah, I would say that, Something. Again, I teach my students and it's, you know, MBAs, it's very important to network, but not to network, just to get something from someone, but to network, to build a relationship and to contribute to them so that you have a, trusting relationship and that takes time and that takes intention.

[00:17:21] So as a leader in an organization, this is nothing new, but, we're so bi I think that the, lesson might be we're so busy with everything that we're trying to do that sometimes we forget, to develop, to, nurture the, those relationships that are so important for us getting stuff done.

[00:17:42] Mo Fathelbab: Brad executives are currently facing the pressure to be efficient, especially with AI at the forefront.

[00:17:48] How can organizations be both productive and human?

[00:17:52] Brad Winn: So you've nailed my lifelong passion. How can organizations be both productive and humane? And can they, I've done a lot of research in the field called organizational virtuousness, which is an interesting field. we go into organizations and we look at cultures.

[00:18:11] We see if the virtues from maybe Aristotle and other societies are present or not so present in those cultures. And to what extent might those virtues have on the business bottom line? So a virtue might be compassionate, A virtue might be forgiveness, A virtue might be courage. And as Aristotle said, there's a golden meme.

[00:18:37] There's a, curved each of those. For instance, courage. The golden mean is courage. But if you don't have enough, it's cowardice. If you have too much, it's running into the flames. It's foolishness. Okay, so we're, there's a little nuance to organizational virtuousness, but in general, if you look at the, humane virtues.

[00:19:02] Then you, correlate them with business outcomes. You see customer satisfaction goes up, you see employee satisfaction goes up, you see business, bottom line numbers, and, profits go up. And an example of that would be is if in a culture there's not a real forgiveness tenant, let's say that a, manager and a subordinate get in a fight.

[00:19:30] And there's not a culture of working through that and Mo and trying to work things out that, as you would imagine would affect productivity, it would affect the other side of the coin. So, that, that's a wonderful, outcome to know that as we try and help people in organizations and, our work life takes so much of our life, Why not have it be a place that is somewhat humane? And if we do that, we'll also get what we're, really driving for in the first place. Those business, bottom line, outcomes and the mission outcomes of our organization.

[00:20:11] Mo Fathelbab: one question I'm dying to ask you is what is the difference of, having to, lead influence people in public service versus in private sector?

[00:20:22] Brad Winn: I think. It was much more difficult in public service in a way because your stakeholders are so diverse. Now, that doesn't mean your stakeholders are not diverse in an organization as an organizational leader, you have your employees, you have your customers, you have your board, you have your investors, and they may all have different interests, but in public service,

[00:20:50] the, different interests are even more broad, and frankly, you get to the point where you realize you just can't please all the people all the time. And, one thing every public servant has to grapple with is, am I there? To do the will of the people or am I there to represent the people, to search out the facts, to do the research, and then use my best judgment And in places of, where, it was a, maybe a, an internal moral issue for me.

[00:21:24] I would go with my heart after listening and after doing the research. but in places where maybe that wasn't the case, I might do more of a town hall. Approach, but it's, it's, there, there are a lot of similarities, but I think, the public nature. And the diversity of interests are, very complicated for a public servant.

[00:21:48] And, here's another interesting thing. When I was actually in the legislature twice. I got in, I got out, I got back in, which is very unusual. Yeah. And I remember when I was in, I thought, these are great people. They are pushing, they're giving of their time. They have great purpose. And, then when I got out, I go, oh, those schmucks, what are they doing?

[00:22:06] You know? And then I got back in and I, they changed on me. So I think where you sit, depends, some of your, perspective. So I, guess a little shout out to be a little understanding and gentle with our public officials. It's a tough job.

[00:22:23] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. so Brett, I understand you've been the senior editor for SHRM's People and Strategy Journal for the last decade.

[00:22:31] Can you share your learnings over the, years?

[00:22:35] Brad Winn: Oh my goodness. So thank you for that question. I just wanna do a shout out for SHRM. We who are interested in HR are so appreciative of the opportunity to network and to share ideas and the great information. And I personally have been, very grateful to be a part of the People and Strategy journal, which has blossomed into more things such as podcasts and so many other ways that we try and get information out.

[00:23:03] But I just wanna, I, happen to have, I probably have, I don't know, 30 journals. From, past journals of People and Strategy and the types of issues that we look at are really quite, interesting and helpful. So this of course is advancing HR, our own profession. Then we see this, what is the science behind HR?

[00:23:30] this one, how to rebuild the C-suite. This one, making culture real. If there's one thing that a senior HR ought to be is the architect of culture, how do you make that real? I mean, these are such salient topics that we deal with, you know, HR and the digital age, leadership transitions that we're right in the middle of all the time and on.

[00:23:55] just, fantastic. Source of information. And I am so grateful for all that SHRM does. And thank you Mo for what you do with this podcast.

[00:24:05] Mo Fathelbab: Thank you. And, I can share that gratitude. Brad, do you have a favorite journal article from all the years of editing The people in Strategy Journal?

[00:24:15] Brad Winn: Oh my goodness, Mo, there are so many great ones.

[00:24:19] One that comes to mind was an article called The Stable Rupture, and that is a made up word on the role of a leader in keeping stability, keeping the line moving, keeping the processes going while balancing disruption. So we call that the stable rupture and being, knowing how to do that and how to balance that.

[00:24:43] That was a fantastic article. another one that I didn't show you before, but this is one of my favorite. on candor and transparency in the workplace, and to what extent should a leader show the cards or not. And so, there, there are so many great articles that have come out that I think have been very helpful for our profession.

[00:25:04] Mo Fathelbab: Brad, so what are the power skills that are necessary for leaders who are looking to innovate?

[00:25:10] Brad Winn: I think the basic unit of an organization is the team. So if I were a senior HR officer, I would look at ways at unleashing the team and allowing the team not to get, bogged down by middle management and senior management.

[00:25:28] Sometimes the team is closer than we are at the top, and so unleashing the team, I think is a new. It's not necessarily new, but it is really getting a lot of research right now and giving psychological safety to those innovators. We've done research on, how innovators within an organization, they're not entrepreneurs necessarily starting a business, but they're intrapreneurs.

[00:25:56] Looking at ways to develop new ideas on processes and products within our organization and to support them and give them the opportunity to fail, as we've talked about, and to, celebrate them. In fact, the research shows that those who actually come up with an idea work with the right power structures within the organization to bring that to execution.

[00:26:21] Actually. Are the ones that are promoted are the ones that gain, salary increases, et cetera. So how can we help our people and unleash them in that innovative way? So that would be. Maybe a, superpower. I would say one thing in my career that has been helpful, and I didn't necessarily do this intentionally, but it just kinda came, is if I see somebody who is a great leader has a great trait, I try and rub shoulders with that person.

[00:26:52] And it's interesting sometimes by doing that, some of that rubs off. So one way to maybe do personal leadership development is to. Seek out someone and rub shoulders with them and see, if some of that can, rub off. I would say a third one would be this notion of continually learning and, reinventing yourself.

[00:27:15] So the way that you can do that one would be to read, you know, step out and, you know, maybe take a little certificate class because it will jog, your brain a little bit and maybe you'll co

your own. Challenges in your work. And finally, this, I would maybe end with this one.

[00:27:36] This is something that my grandfather taught me. He taught at the University of Utah. He was actually a geologist, but he said, Brad, when you're in a class, summarize the chapter of the book in your own words. Make it your own. And then summarize the summaries of your chapters in your own words. Make that your own.

[00:27:54] And then, ha, come up with your own signature philosophy for that topic. I would say maybe that's another superpower is if you're reading or engaging in some new information, change it from what somebody else said to what you would say and make it your own and own that, and then preach that. Get out there and, make a difference with that new information.

[00:28:18] Mo Fathelbab: Brad, last question. What is one piece of advice that has shaped your work or personal life?

[00:28:24] Brad Winn: That's a great question, Mo. I would say number one. listen, get underneath people's positions to their deep interests. People all have fears and concerns. I'd say number two, be prepared when you go into a, stakeholder kind of situation and not only think about being prepared on what you want, but think about what they want in advance.

[00:28:52] And I would say the third thing is. This notion of developing myself so that I have influence and I'm empowered enough to make a positive difference. leadership in my mind is influence. And so let's, use what we've been empowered with to make a positive difference. Those would be three things.

[00:29:14] Mo Fathelbab: And that's where we'll end it for this episode of People and Strategy.

[00:29:18] A huge thanks to Brad for your valuable insights. Thank you Mo. Thanks for tuning in. You could follow the People in Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Also, podcast reviews have a real impact on podcast visibility. So if you enjoyed today's episode, leave a review to help others find the show.

[00:29:39] Finally, you could find all our episodes on our website at SHRM dot org slash podcasts. And while you're there, sign up for our weekly newsletter. Thanks for joining us and have a great day.