Culture Over Ego: How Booking.com Aligns 24,000 Employees Worldwide

[00:00:00] Mo Fathelbab: Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, President of International Facilitators Organization, People and Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives in the field of human resources. Each week we bring you in-depth conversations with the country's top HR executives and thought leaders. For today's conversation, I'm excited to be joined by Paulo Pisano, CHRO, Booking Holdings and CPO at Booking.com. Welcome, Paulo.

[00:00:40] Paulo Pisano: Hey, thanks. Good, to be here.

[00:00:42] Mo Fathelbab: Great to have you with us, Paulo. I can't wait to dig into this, conversation on culture and learn a little bit more about you along the way.

[00:00:50] So, Paulo, let's start with your career journey and what brought you to the field of HR.

[00:00:57] Paulo Pisano: I started my career in, consulting, in management consulting, and I was in a small, originally in a small boutique firm where we, Presented some pretty interesting, solutions, let's say to some of our clients' issues, but we didn't work through implementation.

[00:01:17] Right. And while I was doing that, I was getting increasingly intrigued by how do these companies implement what, we do, how do they change? The way in which they do business, to kind of be more successful. and how do they move from A to B? And the, closer I got to that, the more intrigued I got because it was clear that just logic, Was not enough. Right? No matter how compelling what we presented to them was there were still very big challenges in getting them to move from what they had been doing into what, they needed to do to be successful. So I was intrigued enough that when an opportunity in HR came up and the first opportunity was with Citibank back in the day, I was very keen to, to join in and to learn more about that space.

[00:02:09] As they say, the rest is history. Right. And after Citi, I, I ended up pursuing other opportunities, realizing that the work we do in HR is very transferable across companies, across industries, across geographies. I went, on from, Citi to work on a number of other companies like Marsh McLennan and Kroll, Barclays Pearson, Galp in Energy, and more recently at, at Booking and in e-commerce.

[00:02:38] Mo Fathelbab: Sounds like a lovely journey. I am curious about something you said earlier, which is, even though the logic was there, we couldn't get them to implement the changes. So what do you think got in their way if the logic was there?

[00:02:53] Paulo Pisano: Yeah, as they say, our jobs would be easier without people, right? People get in the way, but people are the solution as well, right?

[00:03:00] Organizations czar people after all. And, what gets in the way are a number of different things. It can be, Competing commitments. They want to be successful and wanna change what they do to do something, but there are other things they wanna do as well, and they don't know how to reconcile that. It might be culture, it might be the way of doing things.

[00:03:19] it might be misalignment in terms of priorities. It might be organizational design and, you know, organizational effectiveness that is not there to support what they need to do. There's a number of things, and that's the beauty, right, of the work we do in HR, is that you touch on all these various levers as you work in the process of helping organizations change and, be successful.

[00:03:41] Mo Fathelbab: Well, that is, a good segue into, culture at booking.com. So how do you define the culture at booking.com?

[00:03:52] Paulo Pisano: So, more than how I would define it, I, know I'm, engaged in, regular conversations with colleagues from around the organization and we've done quite a lot of intentional work on culture here as well in the last few years.

[00:04:06] You talk to people who are working here or who have worked with us in the past, and I think some of the common themes you'll hear. Our first, a high execution low ego organization, right? People are very focused on rolling up the sleeves, getting things done, and there isn't a lot of ego, there isn't a lot of politics.

[00:04:27] Someone can argue once you put two more, two people or more in a room, you're gonna have some level of politics. But, it's, a scale, right? And I've worked with organizations where a lot of your energy and your time was focused on managing the politics. The beauty of what, booking has managed to create is, an environment where there's very little on that, which means that people can come in.

[00:04:51] Be themselves and they can focus on doing the work, on getting things done. So that's one characteristic I've heard from, many individuals who work or have worked here in the past.

[00:05:00] Mo Fathelbab: And how do you, ensure that, how did it come to be that there are no politics? I think that is really interesting for our audience. Because many of them can't say that.

[00:05:11] Paulo Pisano: Yeah. Look, I, won't take credit for that because when I joined the organization it was already, that was already a very kind of a. Present characteristic. I think it, it has to do like always with the decisions you make around who do you hire for the organization and the decisions you make around how do you kind of develop people and who do you promote in the organization?

[00:05:34] So that's, that's something that over a number of years builds up to a workforce that is simply not focused on, that, on, territories or building empires, but is focused on getting things done and building an organization that is, you know, down to earth and, successful. So I think that's, how it was built over time and that really links with how we've been trying to continue to evolve the culture.

[00:06:03] Which is very intentionally ensuring that the, culture, the values we espouse, the behaviors that are important in front of mind are decision factors on, who do we hire, who do we reward, who do we promote, and all those things.

[00:06:22] Mo Fathelbab: So before we get, deeper into the culture, a bit about you.

[00:06:26] Because there's, you know, we, you have, some, great stories and I understand you were in a band at some point. and I'm wondering if, there's any correlation between, what you learned, being in a band and what you're doing, as CHRO in the corporate environment.

[00:06:45] Paulo Pisano: Yeah, that's, ancient history.

[00:06:47] Although I will say just a few days ago, a friend of mine resurfaced a video, from some. 25, 30 years ago of one of the first shows of our band back in a kind of a school band competition. So it was fun to watch that. I, was not, you know, kind of in a professional band, but we did spend a few years playing and, it's one of those things in hindsight, right?

[00:07:13] You, reconnect with and you reflect in the learnings that you had earlier in your life. I think playing on a band. It taught me a lot around, first teamwork. How do you, operate as a team and how important it is for you to be attuned to one another if you want to get something as a result.

[00:07:33] That is more than the individual parts, right? That makes a difference. We all know you see a band play and there's a difference right between a, band that is a tune and they're connected versus, one that is not, that people are just staying in their own track. it taught me about, creating as a group that's not always easy.

[00:07:52] It taught me about conflict management, managing, you know, egos and, agendas. And I don't mean agendas in a negative way. So there's a lot of learning back in the day, and I think I only realized how useful that learning was much, much later, in my career.

[00:08:09] Mo Fathelbab: That is very, interesting. I love it. you're also a big meditator. I understand.

[00:08:15] Paulo Pisano: Big. Yeah, big, meditator is a, is an interesting term, but I've been meditating or trying to meditate for a very long time, for many, many years. for me it has been extremely, helpful in, so many dimensions of, my life. and it, permeates everything, right?

[00:08:33] Of course, you're not. A different person at home than you are at work. You're one individual, right? You are coherent. And for me, kind of just the simple kinda act of, sitting still and observing what's, happening on my mind, observing my, thoughts and creating a little bit of a space between what's happening on my mind and my ability to observe that.

[00:08:59] Has brought in a lot of awareness, a lot of calm and difficult situations. That's one of the things I've heard, as feedback from people who've worked with me that say, well, you bring a calm presence when things aren't going well, and it's not intentional. It's just a, muscle that you, exercise and you, build a little bit of that kind of disconnecting from the, From whatever's going on in the clouds at that moment.

[00:09:26] Mo Fathelbab: It's a powerful mechanism for sure. So Paulo, for context, can you explain the company structure for the entities Booking.com and Booking Holdings?

[00:09:37] Paulo Pisano: Absolutely. So, Booking Holdings, we're a holding company. We are mostly kind of in the space of, travel.

[00:09:45] We're an e-commerce organization. We're, you know, present in, you know, over 200 countries and territories, about 24,000 people. Just to give you a sense of the dimension of the organization, under Booking Holdings, we have a number of operating companies or brands as we call them, and people will probably have had some connection with one or more of them, like Priceline.

[00:10:06] Open Table, Kayak, Booking.com, Agoda. Some of them are B2B, so people might not know them unless they are in the travel space. Booking.com is the largest brand. I've actually come into the group through Booking.com and the, two roles that I do are, very interconnected, right? So on the Booking.com side, as our largest brand is a lot of work to be done from an operational standpoint and just working side by side with the leaders of the organization, ensuring that we are.

[00:10:35] Kind of building kind of a strong strategy and infrastructure culture and everything else to support kind of the delivery of that strategy. The holdings side of the role has an element that's a bit more outward facing and connects very closely with the work I do with the board, but also is about trying to find the right level of collaboration.

[00:10:58] Across the group between our brands. And I say that because historically our brands were built very independently. That's one of the things that provided a lot of agility to our organization, was that even as we grew through acquisitions as well, a brand would come in, there's a little bit of connecting with the brand, but let them go and do their own thing, do what they do best.

[00:11:19] And that helped a lot in the success. But over the years, and I think that's the linkage also with culture. We realize that extreme independence was leaving value on the table for our customers, right? That there was an opportunity there that sometimes rather than compete with one another, which was true in some cases.

[00:11:40] We could align a little bit more and, help ensure that we're providing the best possible value to our customers. When I say customers, by the way, as a two-sided, you know, marketplace customers are, hotels and car rental companies and, you know, hosts of homes or airlines, and it's the travelers, right?

[00:12:01] We help make that connection. so part of the work that I try to do in the Holdings role is to help kind of align on that balance. Where do we build more connective tissue in terms of how we can collaborate, how we can share knowledge, not reinvent the wheel? Can we mobilize talent across the groups, either through moving across different jobs or working on projects that are gonna benefit the group more broadly?

[00:12:28] And how do we balance that with. Independence and autonomy and agility for, brands to go fast and to stay close to their customers.

[00:12:39] Mo Fathelbab: I think that is really interesting. How does culture impact, a team's performance and alignment, in your experience, Paulo?

[00:12:46] Paulo Pisano: You know, culture is at the very, core, I'd say of, team performance and, alignment, right?

[00:12:54] And what I mean by that is this notion that, look, if you, like it or not, as a leader. You're, shaping culture. Right through your, through what you say, but most importantly through what you do. Right. Your actions. There's a great saying. I, love, I, I forgot who it's attributed to, but is, I can't hear what you're saying because what you are doing is too loud.

[00:13:18] Yes. Or something along. Yes, I've heard that. Yes. Misquoting, right? Yeah. But it's this notion that what do you do as a leader? People are looking up to you and they're gonna replicate or emulate. What do you do? Right. And if you think about teams and how teams perform, how they work together, how they collaborate, they're gonna be emulating how the top team is doing that, so, so culture is very important in that sense because culture is a combination of.

[00:13:44] You know, mindsets, behaviors, symbols, processes, infrastructure is a combination of things that tell people how they're supposed to behave in order to fit in here as a company. The, clearer you are with your culture and the more intentional you are with your culture, I think the easier it is for teams to align behind that north star, the easier it is for you as a manager to make choices around recruiting, around, rewarding.

[00:14:22] so it builds natural alignment in teams and in the organization when culture is something that is clear. And something that is aligned with your objectives as a business.

[00:14:35] Mo Fathelbab: And I understand, you all have 24,000 employees in many countries around the world. so what has been the most significant challenge in scaling and maintaining, this international culture, across such a large area that's, spread around, around the world?

[00:14:55] Paulo Pisano: Yeah, that, that's a great question. And look, it's, it's not like we have the ultimate solution for that. I think we've done a reasonably good job in, in, shaping, culture and maintaining and evolving a healthy culture in the group. First, first part of it, I think, has been. being respectful, so to speak, of a level of, autonomy and independence across the brands.

[00:15:22] And what I mean by that is if you look around the brands we have in the group, there are certain elements that are gonna connect the brands there are similar. The low ego, high execution, we have an obsession for, data and for insights, right? There's a saying in one part of our company from many years ago that says, no HIPPOs, and by HIPPO they meant highest paid person's opinion.

[00:15:47] It's this notion that you know, Insights and data speak louder than which level you are in the organization, and that generated very robust discussions in a kind of a safe environment for people to challenge one another and to find better results. Some of those things are common across the group, but other things that are more specific to each of our brands.

[00:16:11] And I think respecting that, recognizing that, and allowing each leader across brands to nurture. Their brand really helped. The second thing is appointing leaders who were not just, very capable executives, but who were strong culture carriers, right? And ensuring that in the process of development of leaders, of succession, of leaders, you have individuals, and teams who are, carrying and who are nurturing.

[00:16:41] That culture that, that we want for the organization, and that helps scale really very effectively. I think then it's incorporating some of that in the way you hire individuals for the organization. I would caution, you know, you have to be a bit careful also because there's always this saying around bringing someone who's a fit, who's a cultural fit.

[00:17:03] If you're not careful. You might create a bit of an echoed chamber, right? You just hire people who are exactly like, and you don't challenge your culture. You don't challenge the evolution of the culture. But I think if you find the right balance, you bring a mix of people who can add to the culture you have, can adapt to the culture, but also challenge the culture a little bit.

[00:17:25] I think we've done a good job on that in general. So that's the journey we're in. Currently, I'd say the main bit we're trying to focus on is, helping leaders more intentionally shape culture. So provide leaders with awareness and with tools that help them know when and how to continue to shape culture in a particular direction.

[00:17:54] Mo Fathelbab: How do you strike that balance between the right culture versus the echo chamber?

[00:18:01] Paulo Pisano: Look, I, haven't found a formula yet. that's, if, someone has one, please, you know, ping me on that. I think it's more art and science, right? So one of the ways we do that is by having, a diversity of people engaged in panels.

[00:18:17] For example, when you interview people to come into the organization and to challenge them. Or recruiting teams, I think are pretty well versed on that and on challenging that too. So having great recruiters in your team can make a huge difference because in the process of sourcing and filtering those candidates in, they're not already by default bringing candidates that are exactly.

[00:18:40] Fit for the specific, you know, culture and role, but they're challenging us a little bit, right? They're challenging us openly and, that helps a lot. and then it's being exposed to the external world is the more we get people in the organization to, to connect with what's happening out there.

[00:18:58] Other ways of thinking, other organizations we can learn from, other ways of working. the more you. In a way, incentivize people to take a little bit more risk in, in bringing in different perspectives.

[00:19:12] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. And without risks, we lose some creativity. We lose voices, we lose growth opportunities. I think that is great stuff.

[00:19:21] So I also love the no HIPPOs bit. you know, I think too often I've seen it where the person who is the, big. The big shot in the room, talks more than others, and it really does require some work to, get others' voices, to be heard and to be, also heard, as, as important and, valuable.

[00:19:42] because as a leader, you don't have a purview of every little bit of everything happening, inside the company. are there any other leadership frameworks and governance models that underpin your culture Paulo?

[00:19:54] Paulo Pisano: Yeah, it's, well, it's interesting you, We're not huge on frameworks for leadership. We've kind of resisted them for a long time, I would say.

[00:20:03] but we, do use some, frameworks in leadership. We do have, we call them leadership expectations in some parts of the organization, for example, we try to avoid the framework. And if you look at them, if you look at the frameworks. Or the expectations. I would argue they're not very different from what you're gonna see in most organizations out there, right?

[00:20:23] There's not that many different ways of leading. I think, of course know there's some variations on styles, but the kinds of things, if you ask anyone, what are you looking for in a good leader are gonna be, I think, relatively similar. What I would say that we try to do. Maybe differently than I've seen, at least in my own experience also is not the what, the framework or the expectations are, but how do you get there?

[00:20:52] And we put a lot of work on getting there through a very, inclusive and engaging process with people from across the organization. We try to use a lot of data and insights to guide us also in how do we funnel and make decisions about what are those. Leadership, you know, capabilities or expectations we think are most important for us at this moment, and that helped, get people to engage more openly and with more appetite.

[00:21:24] Into the work that we're doing in terms of, you know, development of those competencies. So, so on the leadership frameworks, that's kind of the space we're in. on governance, we do put quite a bit of effort on what I call kind of more the decision making in the organization and it links back with.

[00:21:46] With what we were talking about HIPPOs, right. You know, that great ideas and creativity can come from anywhere around the organization. You want to be able to tap into that and to, kind of, hear those voices at the same time. at some point someone's gotta make a decision, right? And they have to own that decision.

[00:22:06] They have to take accountability. So we try to create more clarity around that, right? And we've, put a lot of work into. Improving the way in which we make decisions, the quality of our meetings, the clarity around, you know, if you have a meeting, is it a meeting to inform? Is it to discuss? Is it to decide if it's to decide who makes the decision and how they make the decision.

[00:22:29] those are things that we believe by putting a bit more effort into that it might feel a bit more clunky in the beginning. Once it becomes second nature, it makes everything faster and easier in the organization.

[00:22:43] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. So you mentioned data. What metrics or indicators, do you use to measure the impact of, your culture, on your organization and its performance?

[00:22:54] Paulo Pisano: Yeah, look, there are many things that we look at. It's, it's pretty systemic. So I'd say, first you gotta think about the lagging indicators. Ultimately, whatever we do in the culture space has gotta be in service of, our strategy, right? So ultimately want the indicators around the. Revenue market share or, you know, kind of, margins or any of those things to be what you're aiming at with anything we do in the HR space and culture, of course, we are, perhaps guardians or facilitators of culture, but it's something that's owned by everyone across the organization.

[00:23:31] Then we look at, specific areas that we measure through engagement, for example. And, that, that will give us a sense of how we're evolving. Are we evolving in the right direction or not? In which parts of, of, engagement enablement, manager effectiveness, et cetera. we have specific, initiatives that are tied to culture.

[00:23:54] That are, I'd say more measurable. So, for example, for us, a lot of our culture is grounded on customer centricity. We, use that as an anchor for kind of where we wanna direct our efforts, right? To kind of reconnect as deeply as possible with what has made us very successful, which is being very. Close to our customers.

[00:24:13] So we have a customer dashboard that will track some of the main, indicators around customer engagement, satisfaction, et cetera, that provides numbers and provides, you know, kind of, some feedback on how we're doing in that space. We include, Culture indicators in the objectives that people have as part of their yearly objectives, that allows us to track and measure along the year how people are doing on that.

[00:24:42] So there's a number of things that we measure that will give us a sense. If we're moving at in the right direction and if we're moving in the right pace. And as always, it's not equal, right? You're gonna make more progress in some areas than others, but by tracking it, it gives you a sense of, where to prioritize.

[00:25:02] Mo Fathelbab: And your customers sometimes, might be on opposite, ends of, expectations. So your customers might be the traveler or it might be the hotel. how do you balance their two needs when they conflict?

[00:25:17] Paulo Pisano: I must confess, I haven't seen, instances where they conflict in reality. I mean, of course you might say a hotel would like to charge as much as possible, and a customer would like to pay as little as possible, right?

[00:25:30] You could say that for any of us. But at the same time, a customer might want to pay as little as possible, but they want service. They want good quality at what they're getting. They want ease of, you know, booking making changes. Making cancellations, et cetera. The hotel, the same thing. You wanna charge, a, an amount that's gonna keep a good flow of customers connected to you.

[00:25:54] So I think there's no conflict on that for us. From a cultural standpoint, what is common? On both sides is we're trying to create a space where people are curious and they are obsessed with deeply understanding what our customers want and how can we create more ease in, the process of both sides, right?

[00:26:17] Our mission is to make it easier for everyone to experience the world. There's very strong meaning behind each of those areas to make it easier. What does it mean to make it easier for everyone? Everyone means everyone. In our platforms, you're gonna find experiences or a hotel that might cost 50 bucks a night in a hotel that might cost 5,000.

[00:26:38] It's for everyone. And to experience the world. It's every, it's everywhere, right? It's really open. So I think there's a lot more alignment and convergence than there might be conflict. But the most important for us from a cultural standpoint is how do we nurture this space where people are deeply curious and they're trying to keep really close to the customer needs so we can basically obsess around making the best we can.

[00:27:06] Mo Fathelbab: I love this notion of obsessing on the customer's needs. that's really a powerful statement. It says so much. so Paulo, as you, consider embedding culture, as a strategic clever, what advice do you offer organizations seeking a business driven approach to culture?

[00:27:29] Paulo Pisano: Yeah, look, the first thing I would say is, Culture has, gotta exist in service of strategy, right? Remember, I forgot which article it was. Maybe it was Drer or from many years ago, that culture eats strategy for B breakfast or for lunch or whatever. Yes. I was never a big fan of that because it's not an either or equation, right? You, can have an amazing culture.

[00:27:53] If you don't have a good strategy and you're not capable of delivering on the strategy, the best culture is not gonna get you there. But the culture will be an enabler. Of your strategy. So my first recommendation is make sure that whatever you do in the culture space is deeply and closely connected to strategy.

[00:28:13] what's, the strategy of organization and how will cultural serve that? Because. If every organization has a culture, in my experience, more often than not, it's not like your culture is not serving your strategy. Chances are elements of your culture might not be serving your strategic goals, and then you have to tweak and you have to work around that.

[00:28:34] The second bit is make sure that you have engagement from the top team. You know, if your top leaders in the organization are not buying into it, are not engaging with this notion of shaping culture, it's not, it's, very unlikely to work out because their actions are shaping the culture of the organization every day.

[00:28:54] So that's something to watch out. And then I would say. I could tell you like 15 more things, but I'll, say one more Mo you tell me if you want more, but, be relentless in prioritizing also. Right? You can't, you know, culture projects can very quickly grow into massive, infinite things, and then you end up spreading yourself too thin and you don't have depth to have enough impact.

[00:29:21] Working really hard to find, what are those levers that can make the most difference? And starting there can make a huge difference, right? To get traction on kind of a culture program that will help, propel the organization, forward.

[00:29:37] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. Wonderful. Paulo, Paulo, what is one piece of advice that has shaped your work or personal life?

[00:29:44] Paulo Pisano: One piece of advice. Gosh. I'll say one, actually, one thing that is not as much personal advice, but is more tied to the, work I've done in the coaching space. Something I heard very early on when I was training, as a coach like 20 years ago, was this notion that as a coach you have to meet your client where the client is.

[00:30:11] And that might sound obvious, but often is not right now as a coach. And the same thing happens to us as HR practitioners. You meet your client where the client is, but you, see where they could be or where they should be, and that cat can get you distracted. And disconnected with the opportunity you have in front of you that has shaped the way in which I do the work that I do.

[00:30:34] I think it, it links closely with meditation as well, being with what is in the moment. Because if you are, you're paying attention to what's, in that moment, and you might see a number of opportunities that you would miss out if you don't truly notice and listen to what's going on. I find that investing.

[00:30:54] A bit more time, a bit more energy on that can make things a lot easier, in the future. and also it honors where people are in their journey. Right? So you start there.

[00:31:05] Mo Fathelbab: I, think that's beautiful. One last question, Paulo, as it relates to, you know, helping folks, and coaching folks as a coach, has that translated, and if so, how into your role as a manager.

[00:31:20] Paulo Pisano: it's, I think the more senior I've become in my career, the more relevant it's become. I think the, skills of coaching are. Relevant in general, I think because they tend to make you a better listener, a bit more focused on, support and, help. And, there's many competencies, right, that are connected with coaching that help on that.

[00:31:43] But I think as you become a more and more experienced, manager, leader, and executive, you end up surrounded by. Executives that are part of your team, that report to you, that are extremely experienced and, hopefully more often than not, deeper experts in many areas than you are. So your role is more of that, of a coach in a way.

[00:32:07] Then it is, like the role of a manager kind of earlier in career when you're managing individual contributors, right? You're trying to make sure that the, team works extremely effectively. It gels effectively, and you're challenging them, and you're helping them become better observers of themselves and what they do as leaders for their teams.

[00:32:28] That's deeply connected to coaching and it, helped a lot and it still helps me a lot.

[00:32:34] Mo Fathelbab: And that's where will end it for this episode of People and Strategy. A huge thanks to Paulo for your valuable insects. Thanks for tuning in. You could follow the People in Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:32:47] Also, podcast reviews have a real impact on podcast visibility. So if you enjoyed today's episode, leave a review to help others find the show. Finally, you could find all our episodes on our website at SHRM dot org slash podcasts. And while you're there, sign up for our weekly newsletter. Thanks for joining us, and have a great day.