Purpose Under Pressure: Leadership in the Sandwich Generation

Mo Fathelbab: [00:00:00] Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. We are recording live from the Executive Network Visionary Summit. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, president of International Facilitators Organization, People and Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives. In the field of human resources.

Each week we bring you in-depth conversations with the country's top HR executives and thought leaders. For today's conversation, I'm excited to be joined by Brian Dickens, CHRO of the University of Tennessee system. Welcome Brian.

Brian Dickens: Thank you Mo. Glad to be here.

Mo Fathelbab: Great to have you with us. And also as a long time member, perhaps one of the original members of the executive network.

Yes. Yes sir. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Thank

Brian Dickens: you. Thank you.

Mo Fathelbab: So Brian, tell us about your career journey and what brought you to the field of HR.

Brian Dickens: Oh, wow. That's a long tour story. I don't know that you have time for [00:01:00] that today, but, um, you know, I started, uh, my career in higher education. Um, right out of undergrad, uh, started as an RA and then matriculated, um, through student services.

And one day I got a call from the president of institution and said, I need you to do me a favor and take a job. So I did. Leadership development has always been my thing and dealing with people has always been, uh, something near and dear to me. Um, and so I started focusing educationally on, uh, people dynamics and working with people.

And that sort of segued me away from being, originally I wanted to be a veterinarian, a medical doctor, all those kinds of things. I knew I wanted to be a doctor Dickens at some point. Um, but I didn't like all that it was requiring for the medical side. So I said, you know, really not my thing. So I went the counseling route.

And when I did counseling, uh, I [00:02:00] started looking at, uh, human resource development as an area of support for my PhD. That's what catapulted me into the work of human resources by design. So, um, I've been in this field now for 20. Well, let's go beyond that. I won't tell you exact number of years, but a lot of years in, in higher education and especially, um, with an HR focus.

And so it's my passion, if I'm honest with you. One of the reasons that I got into this work was to leave it better than I find it. So every journey that I take in terms of. Reviewing an employee relations issue or dealing with, um, what's the next new best policy or or opportunity for us to consider in HR?

I think about my personal experience as I, uh, implement those kinds of things to leave it better and I find it. So that's really why I ended up in human [00:03:00] resources, um, dealing with people and, and change. I'm a change agent at heart. And so I like to, to again, leave it better.

Mo Fathelbab: And, and I'm just curious, um, you said developing people is near and dear to my heart.

Uh, tell us more about that. What made that so meaningful for you?

Brian Dickens: Well, I think, you know, um, part of, part of my personal journey has always been, I've always been asked the question, are you on purpose? Right? And so when you think about the roles that we have in any organization, in any job, um. Are you using your natural gifts and talents to truly, positively impact whatever you've been given stewardship over?

Uh, and so I think the, when I look at colleagues of mine, I think about my own professional journey, uh, a professional development journey. But I also think about the idea of if I'm the only one [00:04:00] developing in any organization I'm working in, then something's wrong. I am not truly leading and or modeling, um, and or making it better or leaving it better than I find it if I'm the only one growing.

So I make it a standard, um, foundational cornerstone of who I am as a professional to pour into others and give them the resources. As well as the access to being able to truly develop themselves as well. So I always ask people, where do you want to be in five years? What does tomorrow look like? Forget about today, what are we looking at futuristically?

So keeping a future focus on things. That's, that's why it's near and dear to me. And the idea of, um, all boats rise. Rise on a, what is it? Rising tide. Yes. Or boats rise together.

Yes.

Uh, that's really. My, my mantra, my thinking around how to do this, there's an abundance mentality that comes with my thinking [00:05:00] around that, right?

It's enough for everybody. So let's, let's spread that wealth and make sure people are developing properly here.

Mo Fathelbab: There's more than enough for everybody.

Brian Dickens: More than enough. More than enough,

Mo Fathelbab: yeah. Yeah. So what is your vision for yourself five years from now?

Brian Dickens: Oh, God. Retirement, um, segueing, um. You know, Mo I, I, I, I also live by this premise.

I, I, I don't look for jobs, right? I don't, uh, seek employment opportunities. I typically, well, and I shouldn't say that in, in such a broad stroke, I go where I'm called, if that makes sense. So again, if I'm on purpose and there's an industry that's, um. A place where I see myself fitting in. Well then that's what my next calling is.

If you asked me whether that'd be in HR. When I started my career, I was a biology major with a minor in [00:06:00] chemistry. I'm also a vocalist. I love to sing. Ah, I've recorded with Motown. Okay. That's another track.

Mo Fathelbab: I think we're having the wrong conversation. Exactly right. But,

Brian Dickens: but the idea is. Does that, am I doing what I'm really being called to do?

And so when organizations or someone that I've come in contact with, uh, understand who I am as a professional, that's often how doors are open for other opportunities. So in five years. Who knows, who knows what that might look like. It could be back in Motown, could be back. Well, I don't know about Motown, but it could be back somewhere.

Right. But those are, those are, those are my college days. Motown was a fun time.

Mo Fathelbab: So today we're talking about the sandwich generation, and I understand that you are a part of the sandwich generation. What does that look like for you?

Brian Dickens: Yeah, so I am Mo I've recently, um, had an experience of watching. The [00:07:00] strongest pillar of my family, uh, truly.

Uh, so two years ago I lost my dad to, uh, dementia. Uh, and it was, it was a very rapid decline, uh, and I just, uh, wasn't expecting it. Uh, I also have three, uh, children or, or. Two teens and one going to be 21 in January and a sophomore in college, but two high schoolers, uh, and my mom, who just turned 77, uh, began exhibiting early signs of decline and what I have walked into in this stage in my life as a 55-year-old in the workforce and a senior executive at institution.

Um, I'm challenged right now in the last two months with caring for my mom, [00:08:00] um, and doing college visits for my sons, right? That, so this whole notion of sandwich generations of, uh, people who are in the workforce between the ages of, I think 35 to 64 or something like that, um, with the idea of at least caring for.

A one parent who is an el elder care or aging parent, and young children in the home were teenagers, so they call that the sandwich generation. It's having an interesting conversation today, Mo, and someone described it this way, she said, I have been in this space so long, and sometimes the pressures become so great.

I describe it as a panini generation.

Mo Fathelbab: Oh,

Brian Dickens: you know, the sandwiches that are pressed, squeezed, yes. Yeah, they're oppressed. Yeah. Because you've got the tensions of the younger and the elder that are sometimes just so diametrically opposed in terms of needs. Right. Um, and both when you think [00:09:00] about it from a, uh, physical perspective as well as a, uh, emotional perspective.

Two different spectrums when you talk about the sandwich generation. And then not, not to mention the need for self-care that also accompanies that. So, um, and then the financial toll, that's a whole nother conversation, um, around what sandwich generation, uh, or people who are in this generation are experiencing.

And, and it can be a very, very tough space to navigate. Um. I was looking at an interesting, uh, stat. I was, um, preparing for this conversation and Pew Research Center suggested that right now there's about 54% of the entire, uh, workforce right now that are falling in this space of sandwich generation. Um, but they suspect that there is about 53 million people who are American [00:10:00] caregivers.

Right now, today, that's 20% up from five years ago. We expect by 20, I think it's 35 or so, or 2034, that we're gonna have more people over the age of 65 than we do people who are under the age of 18. Mm-hmm. What does that mean? Caregiver generations? This caregiver population's really gonna sky, right? It's gonna get bigger.

And so it begs the question of, okay, now what are we doing about that? And how are we attending to that from an HR perspective, right? Or even from a a, just a, an American workforce perspective. Um, and how do we understand the plight of this particular generation dealing with those numbers. So it's pretty, pretty, pretty astronomical.

I think when you think about it from that perspective. It's a lot of folk.

Mo Fathelbab: A hundred, a hundred percent. That's a lot to think about. Brian, thank you for sharing all that. And I just wanna stick with you for a minute because. You know, you've got three kids at home. [00:11:00] You've got, uh, you know, moms starting to decline.

Brian Dickens: Yes.

Mo Fathelbab: And, uh, and I'm sorry for your loss with your father and, and you come through it all with a big smile and a positive attitude. My question is, what do you do to take care of yourself and how do you balance it all?

Brian Dickens: So, you know, mo, what's important to me, um, personally, so I'm gonna go to a space. I am a, I am a, a spiritually grounded person.

And so my solace comes from, again, purpose and a connection to a higher power at work, right? And so my question that I get up with every day going to work or dealing with both extremes, uh, my teenagers or

my mom, why are you here, Brian? Right? What vessel are you

put here for? Um, and so am I being used in that regard?

[00:12:00] And so I, I, I think it's a personal commitment for me. Um, and if I can be that bright light and glimmer of hope, and remember, I'm also modeling for my children what this might look like for me when I get. To another stage in life. Right. I think back also to my mom's journey. Um, my grandmother and I have to remind my mom of this 'cause, you know, when they get to this stage in life, it becomes a difficult conversation sometimes.

And so having to navigate that, I often challenge her around my experience of watching her do this with her mom. When she was in this sandwich generation, um, at that time in her life, watching her navigate the dialogues, the, the routine for my grandmother was modeling for me in terms of, I didn't think I'd be in this stage, [00:13:00] not like this, right?

Yeah. But when I, when I, when I think back in my memory bank of, oh God, I remember this. It was really helpful for me to draw on those experiences and inform what I'm doing currently with my own mom. So I, you know, I, I say that to say what keeps me grounded for my, my self-care is I get balance, I get networks, I get folk who are sharing similar experience to talk to.

I do biweekly massage. I mean, I do what I need to do to take care of me. Mm-hmm. And my mental sanity, right? And so, um, but I also know that it still must go on whatever that is. And so then when you see me smile, when you see me keep moving, it's because I know that I am on purpose doing what I'm intended to be doing.

In this space right now are both my teens and my [00:14:00] mom. So that sandwich, sometimes it does feel like a panini press, but sometimes it also feels like an open face. Sandwich. Just an opportunity to eat well. Right. And so I think about it from that perspective more, and it just, it keeps me going. Um, and to know that it won't be done until it's done,

Mo Fathelbab: right?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, and from the perspective of the multi-generational trend that you've just described mm-hmm. Um. It's really very different than what a lot of people are doing these days with going to elder elderly care and so forth.

Brian Dickens: Right.

Mo Fathelbab: Um, how did you come to the decision to, to do it at home and to take care of your mother, uh, directly instead of elderly care?

Is it simply what was modeled for you? So

Brian Dickens: I think it was what was modeled for me, but I also think it's, um, it's not a defining decision point. For me, I think it's a continuum, right? And so as long as [00:15:00] I can do what I can do to manage my mom's care personally, culturally, that's how I've been raised and what comes what, what is important to me to make sure that I can ensure the appropriate care where she is in this stage.

There becomes a point in time MOA in everyone's decision point, and my mom's included with her own mom of when you can continue to do that for your own sanity and when it becomes too much and you have to have additional care to support people in that space. So I don't think it's a, I think I'm at a point in time right now in my journey that suggested this is the right thing to do.

Um, can I say that this is where we will be? Five, 10 years from now? I don't know. I don't know. It depends on what stage she is and where my kids are at that point. Right. And I'm now [00:16:00] beautiful piece about the kids is that. When they get to a certain age, 1821, they're kind of doing their own thing, right?

And so I don't have that sandwich anymore. It becomes more of that open face where I'm dealing with one side of it. Um, but this is a really interesting period of time right now, and you think about the, the work balance, work caregiver balance, uh, proposition that also exists. So because she's at home, it presents additional challenges for me versus being in a care facility.

Right where the 24 hour care may be at hand. So things come to place, like flexibility, right? Do I have the support of my leadership? Am I still as productive as, as I I, with all the distractions that are happening in my life right now? So I think those are all important considerations. The challenge for me as I look at our current policies, and I wonder, all right, so we got parental leave.

What does that really cover? [00:17:00] Covers the birth of a child, covers the adoption of of children. There's no mention of elder care. Mm-hmm. That's a place where I think a wide open door opportunity is for us as HR professionals to really think about what do our policies really need to look like moving forward to support people who are in this space in their lives.

Right. So I challenge all, all, all of us who are in this seat as a CHRO or an HR professional to think about. Have you done anything to look at, what services do you offer that support this population? Flexible work? We learned because of COVID. That was a interesting period of time. We can do a lot more remotely.

Same thing in terms of how do we support people in this journey and in the workplace. And so I think that's part of the challenge in the conversation, um, for me personally. So that decision point [00:18:00] around when the time is right to move to a different facility. I don't know when that will be, but I think, and it's a very individualized I conversation, um, whether you've got.

Siblings that can help in this process or not? How do you become the stuckey, if you will, or the responsible one to do it versus, you know, so the family dynamics are also very important for sandwich generations. And if you are the only child, imagine the magnitude of the pressure there when there is no other relief valve.

So, you know, that's, that's a big, that's a big, big mouthful that we're talking about here in terms of that decision point. But, but it's, it's all over the map. Mo I, I, I couldn't imagine, um, right now signing off and saying, while I'm capable putting her in some sort of facility, it just wouldn't be culturally or personally the right move.

If that makes sense. Yeah, [00:19:00] yeah.

Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. And your children get the benefit of having their grandmother around.

Brian Dickens: Listen, my kid, my son said to me the other day, he said, I want grandma around here as long as she's willing to be. Now. Couple that with every day my mom is asking me now what am I going home? Right. I mean, that's the dynamic you're dealing with.

Yeah. And not remembering that you're not at home. No, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. So, so it's all over the spectrum?

Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. Yeah. So according to SHRM's Care and Careers report, nearly one in four caregivers surveyed reported being in net sandwich generation, ages 35 to 64. And according to you, in the pure research, that number's only growing.

So why is it so important to support these workers?

Brian Dickens: Well, again, I think again, when you think about engagement, when you think about, um, retention, um, productivity in the workplace,

um, if your employees [00:20:00] are distracted, what

likelihood are they going to be as effective as they can be for you with whatever responsibilities they have?

So I think it's incumbent upon us to think about how can we best support. While still keeping, um, the job responsibilities at the forefront while balancing and juggling, um, we support employees in a host of things. What makes us any different, right? And so I think this is an opportunity for us to just get sidelined on futuristically.

The data speaks to where we're going to be, and if this population is getting bigger, that means we gotta really think about how do we serve this population in a meaningful way to keep them as productive and as engaged as possible for what we need from the workplace. So I think it's a. It's a, it's a hard conversation to [00:21:00] have.

Um, but such an easy proposition to make around what we can do When you think about the birth of children and how, how we, um, flex policies around that and say family medical leave is the way to go. Well, you, we couple that with parental leave as well, right? So there's some opportunities to think about.

Are there any other provisions we can provide? That lighten the load that keep our employees from being as distracted, right? So I think that's, that's really the conversation. How do we support folk and still get the job done and keep them viable?

Mo Fathelbab: So one of the other challenges and, and perhaps one you went through yourself with mm-hmm.

With the loss of, uh, your father mm-hmm. Is the whole cycle from grief to acceptance.

Brian Dickens: Oh, absolutely.

Mo Fathelbab: How did you go through that and, and what support did you have?

Brian Dickens: So, you know, I think there are two stages. Um, [00:22:00] let me say it a different way. Someone shared with me, um, that you're really, you're really having to prepare your mind for two.

Different losses. One, when you're dealing with my case in terms of a, a memory loss or a dementia or decline in that regard is when you lose them as the person you knew, right.

Or what you knew them to be capable of.

My mom was a firecracker and just a, a force to be reckoned with and to watch her now.

Not be able to move in the space that I've become accustomed to seeing her move, that's one grief. It's 1, 1, 1 moment of loss for me. The second one will come ultimately, and we all have to go this way at some point, is when her life, her physical life expires. So two different [00:23:00] spaces of loss, right? And so, um, but the period of thinking around both.

Grieving periods is how do I take care of me in that process and how do I, how do I reckon with the inevitable? Because those are hard conversations and we don't wanna, we sometimes avoid them. We don't want to really dig deep in that space, and I think that creates a quiet scream. If you will, for people who don't have the support, people who don't have, um, affinity resource groups that can really support them in this process.

So, you know, uh, the grief is huge. The, the other part is I also, the smile you mentioned earlier, the celebration of the life versus the dismal picture. [00:24:00] Right? And so. What was the contribution to the world that they made that you can really reflect on and, and hold onto, right? Those nuggets that carry you to the next moment.

So I think that's important. Um, so that grief cycle acceptance is the first part of recovery, right? So accepting that you're in this moment, getting through the denial, getting through the loss, getting through the idea of, oh my God, life has changed what I used to be able to expect from this person, I can no longer expect.

What they have not been accustomed to expecting from me, I now have to provide. Mm. So I think that journey, um, is really a, a critical one. That's a journey of humanity, I think. Right? So when you think about sandwich generations who are still navigating the beauty of seeing a, a life explode into something new, right?

When your teenagers are leaving the house. There's always that loss around, well, they want, my babies are gone now. Oh my goodness, what does that look like? [00:25:00] Right. Versus my parents have to come home now 'cause it's my turn. That's a different kind of conversation. Right? So I think that grief that we, we talk about that's a continuum and you, you never get over any stage o

I'm still mourning the loss of who I remember. My mom is. That makes sense. Of course it does. Yeah. And, and there are glimmers that I see the old lady, I say, oh, there she is. Right.

Mo Fathelbab: And there's that smile and

Brian Dickens: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And, and so you cherish those moments when they come. Yeah.

Mo Fathelbab: What other, uh, challenges or lessons has this period of your career taught you?

Brian Dickens: Um, I think that family and, um, what's important in life, uh, I would say what's important to me is. You know, the big, the big check or the job or the project or the, the initiative that you're working [00:26:00] on, it's exciting to get those things done and, you know, have certain milestones. But at the end of the day, it's a focus on what is truly important, um, at the, at the, when it's all said and done, when the lights are off.

And when you are in your own personal space. What is important to you? And I think family always is at the forefront for me. And so whether I stay with a job or I leave a job that's not as traumatic to me as a life experience through family. Right? That's, so it is taught me to put things in perspective of is it really that bad?

Whatever that is I'm dealing with. Is that, is that, is that a initiative that you put forth that didn't get approved? Is that, uh, in the grand scheme of things, is that really the worst thing that could [00:27:00] happen? So part of what I'm

Mo Fathelbab: really, uh, picking up from you, Brian, is, um, your, your mental mindset, your, your, your framework is, you're looking at the positive, you're looking at the good side of this.

Brian Dickens: You have to, I mean, if we focused on the o the other side of it, that, which we know we've gotta get through. I, okay, so I'll go back to Johnny's, uh, piece when he did the national conference, uh, a couple of years ago. Yeah. Or last year when he talked about the only only animal, um, that runs into a storm is the buffalo.

Remember that?

Mo Fathelbab: I remember that.

Brian Dickens: And so I think part of my experience of that and relating to that is. To get through whatever the grief is to get through whatever this period is, I gotta push through to get on the other side of it.

Mo Fathelbab: Don't run away.

Brian Dickens: Right. You, you can't it to, so, so to focus on the negative, does what for you,

Mo Fathelbab: makes you feel bad?

Brian Dickens: The stress, right. [00:28:00] The, the toll that that takes on a person's mental and physical. So I choose to, I choose to

look at this cup as half full. Right. And every now and then I can fill it up a little bit more with, with my own hope,

my audacity of hope, right? So my, um, my optimistic anticipation of what's to come versus my negative outlook on where we're going.

Mo Fathelbab: That is a lesson for, uh, for, for all of us. That's a wonderful one. Um, so how have you been able to adapt the way you work to better suit your schedule?

Brian Dickens: Well, luckily I do have a very supportive, uh, work environment and culture. Um, so at the University of Tennessee, um, what I find very helpful is for employees to see me as a resource as opposed to just a [00:29:00] boss or a leader in the organization who only sees the bottom line of the.

The, the company, right. Um, but who sees me as with a whole person paradigm in mind. And I luckily have managers who I can be very transparent with. Um, and my hope is that we can encourage other leaders of organizations to really adopt that mindset, to make it comfortable for employees to be able to even disclose that they're part of this generation.

Not for fear of, of losing footing. Or the consideration for the next promotion or opportunity because oh, they've got all these things going on. It's almost like that, that early, uh, uh, signal of, of discrimination when we were looking at women in the workplace who were, uh, paternal or having a, a maternal who are giving birth.[00:30:00]

Right? Oh, well, we might wanna consider, well wait a minute, wait a minute.

So you, we really need to create a culture where we can encourage our employees to be more transparent. And open about where they are so that we can figure out ways, again, to be more, um, accommodating and or hopeful to the conversation.

So asking, how can I help you? Right? How can I be a, what can I do to support you in the process? And that's what I have, um, from my, my leadership. Um, and, and I'm also held to a very high standard. So I don't want to, I don't wanna minimize my responsibility for the job I've gotta do. Um, but knowing that people that I work with see me as an individual first.

Mm-hmm. And then my role and why I am hired and what I'm, I'm there to do. And so as long as there's a good coupling of and balance of that, [00:31:00] I think I, I'm, I'm in a good place when that becomes a different. Proposition or situation, it changes the dynamic for me. And then I have decisions to make as an, as an employee, right, in terms of what, what's next for me in my life stage.

So I think we just have to get to a place where people aren't fearful or, or ashamed of saying where they are in this continuum as a sandwich, a person in the sandwich generation, um. It, it's, it's, it's a, it's an interesting conversation. Uh, as I started talking about it more and more, I started saying, wow, I mentioned it.

Uh, we were doing lunch earlier in another group of ENX folk who are just here, ready for the conference. And we were sitting there and I mentioned what I was getting ready to do and they said, oh my God, if you only knew my journey, been there, done that. In the process of it now, uh, a colleague who just lost her mom, I mean, all of the continuums [00:32:00] of where are people right now in this space.

These are the folk that work for us every day. So I think people analytics are really a key to this conversation in terms of data. I think being able to think about how do we use stats in the workplace to help us. Think about the business case for why these kind of policy adaptations or changes need to happen and ground that in.

What does our workforce currently look like, right? If, if the age group alone identifies who's most likely to be in this generation, that's an indicator even without people having to do self-disclosure. So it gives you a sense of how best can I support. My workforce in this, in this process.

Mo Fathelbab: And, and, uh, the care and careers report also mentioned that I believe over 60% are [00:33:00] afraid to disclose that they're in this situation

Brian Dickens: for that very reason we just talked about.

Right? So the stigma that comes with, if I do that, am I at risk of not being able to enjoy, um, exposure or opportunities that might be out there? Um. So sometimes I just choose to live silently and quietly and I'm dealing, and then we wonder why we have such a high AP absenteeism, right? Why we, we've got people who are less productive or less engaged.

They seem distracted. Do we know why that is? And do we have enough touch points with our employees to really have conversations? I'm not saying become counselors. I'm not saying become social workers, but I'm saying become that in tuned manager or leader to see people beyond just the role, to get an [00:34:00] understanding of what, what shifted something's.

Something's different. You know, my boss will look at me and say, what's going on?

Mm-hmm.

What's happening? Well, you know, there was something, something today was a good, was a, it was a interesting morning. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because you don't know, it's like a box of chocolates. You don't know what you're gonna get until you get Right.

Um, and so I think, I think, uh, EQ is a really important to have in this. So that emotional intelligence is, is critically, uh, important in dealing with, with folk who are in this space.

Mo Fathelbab: Thank you. Um, so what are leaders and organizations missing, uh, today when it comes to understanding the sandwich generation and, and how that that impacts this workforce?

Brian Dickens: I think they're missing the futuristic, uh, uh, landscape of what it's going to be, right? So if, if all of our executives understood that in the next, in the last five years, we've grown 24, 20% in this population alone, [00:35:00] and it's only gonna get bigger. Then it, it means we may have missed the mark in thinking about are we prepared for what that means for that, that group of people who will be largely responsible for, uh, how well we are doing as an organization.

So I, I think we're, we are not sharing enough around the data, not sharing enough around the impact or the potential impact of it. So I think that's, that's what we're missing.

Mo Fathelbab: And as an HR leader yourself, what benefits have you all instituted to address this situation?

Brian Dickens: So I think it is again, a.

Conversation around and, and, and this is where I think policy is so important at ut we have, we have, we've enacted again, the parental leave and that deals with the one side of the house in terms of the younger generations. You've got the tuition assistance programs, you've got all of those kinds of things that [00:36:00] are typically geared toward, um, helping people deal with the other side of the sandwich.

We have. A lot of work to yet do mo on the, uh, complimentary side of that sandwich in terms of the elder care propositions. So what we are doing is looking at how do we leverage current FML. How do we leverage other additional leave provisions that support employees? And is there something else we can imagine in our arsenal that can really support people who are on this journey?

We're thinking about. How do we support that? Just in time strategy, whether it's your EAPs, whether it's your emotional wellbeing services, whatever it is that we sort of point people to for crisis management, I think we're missing that layer of in between where it's not quite a clinical issue and it's not [00:37:00] quite, um, a friend conversation.

But rather that in between of someone being able to truly dig into how do I support a person who might just need to talk for a moment in a, in a moment of anonymity so that they don't have that, uh, stigma of somebody out. I'm being outed in the workplace of my own personal situation. So giving them some sort of cover in that regard.

So we are really exploring what other benefits can we. Add on as supplemental even to our current state offered benefit programs, um, that can support. And, and I think this conversation has also helped me reshape my thinking around what's my role in advancing this conversation even, even further. Yeah.

Mo Fathelbab: Um, so given the rising age of the US workforce, what HR policies.

Do you envision in the future, how does [00:38:00] HR have to evolve in order to really address this increased dual caregiving, uh, need?

Brian Dickens: Yeah, again, I think again, more flexible work arrangements, more opportunities for, uh, employees to, um, be able to, to do their work remotely where necessary. Uh, to support someone who does have in-home caregiving that they're having to do.

Um, so sometimes just being present and adapting policies to support that. Um, you might, um, have heard lately that there's this big return to work push with our population changing and growing in this space. Uh, you know, that's gonna force people to make decisions around, is this a company for me? So I think we have to really think about.

Are our policies adapting with the time? Are we being as innovative and creative around our thinking of how we can support [00:39:00] people in this space and still, again, get the work done? Right? And so policy adaptation in terms of flexible work and I think thinking about your leave provisions, thinking about your, um, ability to do.

Out of the box approaches to, um, giving elder care, real consideration, right? How, how, how many, uh, opportunities do we have to create this caregiver, uh, toolkit, right? The sandwich generation toolkit. That speaks to how do you help students or kids, and then how do you point people to senior memory loss services, right?

All those kinds of things that we typically don't tread into. Um, and so I think it's a, it's an opportunity for us to, to open up the tool. Shed think about what's available to us to [00:40:00] add. We we're two tunnel vision, I think on the other side of it.

Mo Fathelbab: Last question. What is one piece of advice that has shaped your work or personal life?

Brian Dickens: Huh, that's a really, really good question. Um,

I'm gonna go back to the beginning of our conversation. I encourage people to think about how you look at a situation, determines your

next action. Determines how you're going to approach dealing with whatever that situation is. So whether you view the cup as half empty or half full matters.

And so I think of the abundance mentality. I think of, um, am I on purpose? And I think of am I leaving it better than I found it?

Mo Fathelbab: And that's where we'll end it for this [00:41:00] episode of People in Strategy. A huge thanks to Brian for your valuable insights.

Brian Dickens: Thank you.

Mo Fathelbab: Thanks for tuning in. You could follow the People in Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

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