How to Avoid Compassion Fatigue

[00:00:00] Mo Fathelbab: Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, President of International Facilitators Organization. People in Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives in the field of human resources. Each week, we bring you in-depth conversations with the Country's stop HR executives and thought leaders.

For today's conversation, I'm excited to be joined by Leah Marone, psychotherapist and corporate mental wellness consultant. Her first book, serial Fixer, is coming out in November. Welcome, Leah.

[00:00:39] Leah Marone: Thank you so much. Thank you.

[00:00:42] Mo Fathelbab: Great to have you with us. Leah, tell us about your career journey and what brought you to the role of corporate mental wellness consultant.

[00:00:50] Leah Marone: Oh my career journey. Okay. Well, I've started out, I mean, kind of the foundation of it all is I'm a psychotherapist, so I think from a very young age, I loved learning just about people. I loved learning about resilience. I loved learning about how people interpret things and how it affects their behavior and all the things you know, around just.

Psychology. And so that led me into the field of psychology and clinical social work. And so the foundation, you know, whether it's working in loss and grief centers out in the community, juvenile justice really was out and about doing all of that. And then when I had a family, started a family, I wanted to be able to kind of have that dual role and flexibility of being mom, being wife, and also clinician, which led me more to the private practice work and specializing in anxiety.

Disorders working with athletes, mood disorders, grief and loss. And I had a few clients that, you know, were coming in for therapy and they were in leadership positions. And I had one in particular say, we would love for you to come talk to our team. Like we would love, you know, I would love for you to share some of the things that we've been working on with boundaries, with self-awareness, with anxiety management and, just burnout in general and, come talk to my team.

And I really to be, you know, quite honest, that was so nighting to me and I, loved the combination of the intimacy. Of individual therapy and then kind of this macro level of speaking and, teaching and facilitating. And so that really led me to, again, this thirst for, larger groups and facilitating this learning on that level.

And it just has kind of morphed from there and opportunities have come along. And of course it's all under the umbrella of mental health, but I'm really enjoying the variety and the diversity of just roles that I can play in the different spaces I can create for people.

[00:02:43] Mo Fathelbab: I love all that and there's so much to dig into, from resilience, to burnout, to, just saying no and putting up boundaries.

let's start with burnout. So first of all, what are the signs of burnout? How does one know that they've gotten close to it or even over the line and are burned out?

[00:03:04] Leah Marone: Right. Right. And the, that's a great question. I know we've been talking a lot about burnout, especially, gosh, the last five, five-ish years.

but it's still, it's one of those topics that we don't want it, we don't wanna get there. And then it be almost like. We're knee deep or even neck deep in burnout. Burnout is when we do, we feel like we're kind of zombie-like we're kind of going through the motions. There's this flat affect. We're maybe able to sustain certain roles or do it, but we're not really invested.

It's almost like we're kind of watching ourself. Selves do these things and the passion that we, may have had, the connection that we may have had with ourselves in this role or other people, it's really hard to grasp. And so it's this kind of mechanical, robotic, flat, just almost movement through life.

And a lot of times you'll. Feel, a heightened sense of irritability. You'll feel patients go out the window. You'll feel this, your Hope meter decrease and just parts of you that were once ignited or parts of you that crave certain things and almost like diversity on your plate are hard to find.

They become almost dormant. And so burnout again, I think we. It kind of rises the critical part in us where we wonder what is wrong with me, you know? and we start sometimes to reach for blame outside of us. We try to pinpoint different things, which might be true, but a lot of times it's this intense disconnect with us and the ability to create these boundaries, fuel what we need to fuel and really take time to generate that self connection.

[00:04:41] Mo Fathelbab: So I, beautiful, stuff and, I wanna dig into the irritability bit just for a second. Is it always tied to burnout? 'cause it seems to me that somebody could be irritable and, maybe not be burnt out. I.

[00:04:55] Leah Marone: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, irritability can come in a lot of different forms and have a lava have a lot of different triggers, right?

But I think that irritability and lack of patience, it's a really good indicator that your plate is full, right? Your plate is full, or the mental, you know, kind of the conflicts that are going on internally or wearing you out. And so the inability to be present, the inability to find that passion and that purpose and all of that, those things that we talk about and that I think we strive for.

They're just non-existent or they seem that way. but irritability, and I think lack of patience, even lack of attention, all of those things, when we are at capacity, when we're walking around with this full balloon, those things are hard to engage in. You know, sometimes it's hard to give people then the benefit of the doubt.

Sometimes it's hard to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt and see the silver linings because again, we're operating at capacity.

[00:05:51] Mo Fathelbab: So, let's talk about resilience. Resilience isn't putting up with being at capacity, is it? Or how do you define resilience?

[00:06:00] Leah Marone: Yes. resilience is one of those things that we need to continue to build.

It's a muscle that we need to continue to flex and build. And it, you're exactly right. It's not putting up with certain things, but let's be real, there's certain things in life we do have to kind of trudge through. We do have to say, you know what, yeah, I gotta take this for the team. Or Yeah, this is the wave.

It's just this is, but I'm aware of it. I'm gonna validate it. I'm also gonna give myself a chance to recover or reframe or rejuvenate myself. And if you think about an athlete, you know, with resilience. There are built in times for those that are really training at a high level. They're built in times for recovery.

They're built in times for resets because otherwise there's pro, they're prone to injury. They're prone to that type of burnout, right? And they're not gonna be able to peak and sustain. And so the same types of things go with us when it comes to mental and emotional health. And I think that's one of the biggest things about resilience is it's not about, you know, maintaining at this very high level and kind of always being on, it's the ability to acknowledge this is challenging, or this might be out of my control, but I have enough in my resilience bag that I'm gonna be able to grab it.

I'm gonna be able to execute it or trust that I'm resourceful enough to look for someone to structure and support, and then I'm going to find ways. To go right back up and I trust that I'm gonna be able to do that. That's resilience and it takes self-awareness

[00:07:29] Mo Fathelbab: and my understanding of resilience is that it's how quickly you bounce back.

So stuff is gonna happen and if you're resilient, you bounce back more quickly. Is that, part of how you define it?

[00:07:41] Leah Marone: I think it is, and of course it depends on the challenge. It depends on the, certain circumstance in life, whether it's a, short burst or it's something that's very situationally draining and hard and has a lot of layers.

but yeah, it's that ability to bounce back. And I think the thing that's, gosh, one of the most intricate and primary parts of resilient is that self-trust, right? It's trusting and having enough repetitions or reps under your belt that you trust. You are going to be able to find a way or pull from past data or whatever it may be, to start taking steps, even if they're this big.

[00:08:20] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. So Leah, we know that, HR leaders wanna help others, and this can sometimes lead to burnout, compassion fatigue. How do you see this show up with your clients and what's the aha moment where, they realize that, oh boy, I gotta set some boundaries.

[00:08:36] Leah Marone: Right, right. And oftentimes I love it when we can catch this before it's never too late, but that, you know, you're always, again, if when they're in the thick of it, you're like, ah.

So it's really good. And I'm glad that, you know, we're having this opportunity to talk about some of the things to put in place to kind of prevent yourself from this burnout cycle where you're really low and then you kind of peak and you're like, okay, and then you kind of replicate the whole thing again.

but yes, I think. HR professionals. You know, you look at educators, you look at, you know, healthcare providers, you look at people in general that are, you know, that move or are attracted to fields that do require you to create space for others. You know, do require levels, higher levels of compassion oftentimes, and, empathy at times.

Those are wonderful gifts, but oftentimes what I'm finding is that people within those fields are generally more so prone to that compassion fatigue and burnout, because people with higher levels of empathy and compassion tend to be pretty awful sometimes at setting boundaries. And why that is oftentimes is because if I kind of go inward a little bit.

The voice inside of us that sometimes I like to, coin as our inner pleaser is very much, you know, in tune with what other people think about us, how we're serving them. If we don't show up for them, if we don't come across as nice and kind and supportive and all of these things, then a, we're not doing our job.

We're not, you know, collaborating. Other people might think that we're not being a good team player or a good team leader, or a good HR professional, or a good mom or a good friend or all the things, and so this. Part in us, this pleaser part in us is very driven to create these spaces to be available often, which, again, wonderful things, but oftentimes it surpasses the needs and the resets and things that you know they need for themselves to keep that Those wonderful gifts afloat.

So I think that's one of the biggest things I see. and I know I've had to kind of do my own work with, you know, Leah, what is your role in this relationship? What can you control? What are your options? How can you show up and be that space creator, but support and don't solve and quit taking false ownership?

And coming to these relationships with this unnecessary pressure to alleviate this person, fix for this person, all of these things. I think that role that we're putting ourselves in, especially HR leaders often is just something that oftentimes is not sustainable.

[00:11:12] Mo Fathelbab: So it seems to me like there are downsides for both parties for this people pleaser, and for those around them who have come to rely upon that person.

Can you speak to that?

[00:11:23] Leah Marone: It is, it's kind of these, and we see it all the time in the professional world. It's like these micro co-dependencies, right. And, you know, it's so interesting and I'd like to even share, just I'll call myself out here. I think as a student, you know, and this was gosh, decades ago, but I can remember even as a grad student, I had a paper due.

I was, you know, frantically trying to get this done. And I can remember, you know. Running down the hall, not but walking very fast trying to find my professor to like, almost have him soothe structure. Tell me what to do. 'cause it was, you know, I was just at a loss and so I had this urgent state, I had this ancient anxious mindset and I can remember walking into his office and kind of, you know, probably barged into his office and he immediately saw the emotions all over my face.

And I said, hi. Yeah, I have a question. I'd like for you to help me. I know the papers do soon and I'm probably blah, blah, blah. And he looked up calmly from what he was doing and what he was writing, and he said, Leah, hi. I can tell what you have to say is very important, but I'm in the middle of something and I'm not gonna be able to give you my full attention.

So if we can find a time to circle back later this afternoon. Let's do that. And as you can see, I remember that, and I remember the boundary that he set, but I remember feeling respected. I remember him, you know, he could have very well multicast that mo. He could have very well said, you know. Oh yeah. You turned in the last paper, right?

You did pretty well. Yeah. I'm sure you'll get it. Read the rubric, you know you'll be fine. Yeah, we'll see you tomorrow. And I would've walked out like. Okay. That wasn't helpful. But, and you know, he just would've been on his way and I would've frantically been on mine. But what he did is in that couple hours before we met again, I was able to access more logic.

I was able to prepare some actual questions. I was able to, you know, regroup and recalibrate myself and keep ownership. And he was able to create space, but act as that supporter rather than that solver. And I. Think what happens in the dynamic I think of even the workforce is sometimes you have employees and team members that are lacking confidence in certain way.

We all are in some respects, but if we have a leader that is constantly structuring, fixing, giving advice right out of the gate to maybe make them feel like they're being great leader and they're helping and fixing all the things, it's such a disservice because then these team members. We're missing the opportunity for them to keep growing, we're missing the opportunity for them to have some of those processing skills and having a misstep that they can learn from.

And so, you know, creating or having this mindset as a leader where you're, you know, supporting and support don't solve, I think is a wonderful way to not only empower and create space without dipping your hands and taking all this false ownership and being up at night with all these things that really in reality aren't yours to.

Truly own. And then it gives people around you this opportunity to flourish, to build, those muscles that we all want everyone to see, so we can work collaboratively and keep going.

[00:14:31] Mo Fathelbab: So you're resonating with me, a lot 'cause I'll throw myself under the bus here and, you know, sometimes, in my, pursuit of productivity, I don't leave enough space.

And so how do I, change my mindset and. How could the space be beneficial? How do I come to believe that I need that space more so than the need to be productive at all times?

[00:14:56] Leah Marone: Yes, Well, when we think about even space, when we think about just even self-care, a lot of times, you know, the critical productive part of us will surface and be like, well, we don't have time for that.

Or, you know, that's probably not productive, or, we'll figure all that out later. But in reality, if we really just look and focus on. All of the dozens of transitions that are in our day, just naturally, whether it's walking from one room to the next, whether it's the bigger transitions, maybe from work to home and home to work, transitioning roles, transitioning, all these things that we're doing.

Not capitalizing on every single one, but some of these we are filling the gaps. We're, you know, creating like, oh, well I can check this, I can do this, I can check this off. Rather than when we walk somewhere where we go out and get the mail, not bringing our phone with us. Not thinking through all these things, but really just again, exercising our five senses.

You know, what's the weather like today? How am I doing? Well, maybe I can take a breath or two in this, you know, 25 seconds and these little bursts of mindfulness, these little bursts of resets that I think unfortunately were cluttering. We have this urgent pace of, again, let me fill these, let me be productive with the hope that eventually I'll be able to relax, recover, and do all these things, but then we're outta shape with it and we can't.

And that's when all of our clutter rises up and anxiety starts to surface oftentimes. I think what I would suggest is, you know, being incredibly mindful of how you're filling your transitional times throughout the day, whether when you're in the car, whether you're going for a walk, whether you are in the shower, are there 15 things and bells and whistles that you're listening to?

Are you brushing your teeth and walking around the house and you know, loading the laundry and feeding the dog? Are you taking these routine things that you do and just getting more comfortable with checking in? Looking at yourself in the mirror, God forbid, or just taking a quick data collection of how am I at, or how am I, where am I at?

What's going on? And you don't necessarily have to fix and solve and, overanalyze, but just connecting with ourselves. Let some of that air out of our balloon.

[00:17:06] Mo Fathelbab: So I have a hundred emails in my inbox and I'm tempted to do my email in the shower while I'm walking, while I'm in every step of my life. How do I get over that?

[00:17:17] Leah Marone: Yes, and this is where the self-trust comes in, right? Because the critical part of you, if you don't take all of those opportunities, that critical part is woo. He's front and center. He is got steering wheel, and he's saying, you know, mo, then you're gonna get behind. Then you're gonna really have some severe consequences.

Then if you don't respond to these emails in a good time, people are gonna question just. How hard you're actually working if you're actually collaborating with them. All of these things, we create all these false narratives, we create all these scenarios, and it's this lack of trust that if we take a shower, God forbid, and just, you know, feel the water and just kind of practice a bit of mindfulness and relaxation, that part of us does not necessarily trust that we'll be able to transition outta that and that everything will be okay, and that burst of rejuvenation actually will lead to further productivity and less multitasking.

And that's the muscle we have to build. And that's the part where we have to soothe the critical part of us. But first and foremost, validate it, understand what it's trying to potentially protect us from, which as humans, it's normally in the category of failure, embarrassment, shame, disconnect, all those things that as humans, we do not want to do or feel.

And that is what our critic is trying to protect us from. But oftentimes they come in way too strong. Then we're left with this urgent feeling, we're left with this disconnect, and we're left outta shape with recovering and relaxing.

[00:18:43] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. So Leah, what are some of the most common issues you're seeing, these days in terms of your patients and their needs and what's kind of the macro view?

[00:18:57] Leah Marone: yes. I mean, it kind of to piggyback on what we were just discussing, I think the biggest thing that I'm seeing, I think with, you know, and this just isn't pertaining to one generation, but being outta shape oftentimes with just being and not having stimulation, you know, and I think, you know, even when it comes to self-care, you know, I have clients that will come in, I have teams that I'm working with, and I'll even ask, you know, what do you tend to do for yourself?

And it's so interesting that many times. People will share something, whether it's, you know, in the form of exercise or engaging or watching a show or whatever. And as I dig a little bit deeper, they're multitasking when it comes to those, their self care. They're doing four things at once normally. it's like, you know, and oftentimes it's like, well then we're kind of X-ing this out.

Like when you are exercising, you know, checking your email, doing all these other things and being 50 places at once, it's like, yeah, your body's moving, but you're not connecting with what you're actually doing and you're not reaping the benefits emotionally and mentally. And that's a shame because I think the time that we're putting in for these things, it.

It's a shame that we're not reaping the benefits. So I think getting in better shape with, just capitalizing on those transitions, capitalizing on those times where we can just be doing one thing at a time.

[00:20:19] Mo Fathelbab: So, Leah, for HR executives, as they deal with sometimes emotionally, charge situations and, they wanna be helpful.

As we discussed, they need to set boundaries and be present and, take a beat. And, what, kind of reps can they do to practice this notion of being, and actually being whole at the same time without always being there for someone else?

[00:20:47] Leah Marone: Right. Right. And again, I just wanna just highlight a, this is such a gift and it's such a wonderful quality to wanna help.

And serve and soothe people and we don't wanna diminish that, but we also wanna find that fine line and, incorporate some boundaries so that it's not then taxing to you and exhausting to you where you then are finding yourself in this cycle of burnout or compassion fatigue. And so one of the, I think, first things to do to generate some self-awareness and get some reps in, I think, is to really take a step back in your relationships.

Again, with those you may lead. Those that you know, you, even personal relationships and just maybe take some notes or think about in real time, collect data on yourself with how you tend to show up to these conversations. I. These are not concrete, you know, kind of matter of fact conversations. These are the one where someone might be asking for, you know, what do I do next?

Or maybe are, is coming to you with a, really intense emotion, and I know HR professionals are in front of that a lot. And so it's removing that pressure. Of knowing exactly what to say, how to suit this person, how can I solve for this person? But rather think of yourself as, how do I create space for this person?

And very first step out of the gate, whether it's your child, your partner, you know, a team member, someone you're leaving, a leading, how can I validate them? And validation is first, you know, the energy that it takes to try to understand what someone might be feeling or what someone, the message that they're trying to communicate to you verbally or non verbally.

And so when we first create the space and have this cue to let me validate this person, it immediately moves us into this role we are supporting. We are aligning and we are not jumping in with the pressure of how do I fix, solve, alleviate, which then leads to sometimes taking that false ownership, creating sometimes these micro co dependencies, and then you're off to the races and many people that you know, go into conversations and immediately give advice, immediately try to fix.

And generally with very good intentions are finding this. It's taxing, it's a lot, and we're missing the boat with how we can then empower and leave that ownership with other people. So that would be something that, you know, you can take away and you can really see like, Ooh, yes, I'm doing that often, and maybe some of that might be ego driven to prove to myself that I know what I'm talking about.

I'm a good leader. People rely on me. I'm needed. This is my purpose. We gotta be real with that stuff. But then shove that for a minute and see how if you show up and you validate first and you start to ask questions that can help people process and find their options and how you can support and keep that ownership with them.

It's amazing leadership. It's amazing parenting. It's amazing in all levels, but it also prevents you from. The cycles again, of burnout and compassion fatigue. You're not serial fixing,

[00:23:57] Mo Fathelbab: so not fixing, not giving advice. I love all that. How does one validate, so let's say I don't know anything about this validation notion.

How do I validate someone?

[00:24:08] Leah Marone: Yes. Great question. And I think oftentimes we confuse validation with agreeing. That's not the case. So if you think about one of the classic examples, and I see this a lot of times in my office, is, you know, if I have a couple come in or a family come in and I we're working on validation, I also have to remind them like, you may not agree with anything that person just said.

You may not agree. You may have a completely different thought process or you interpreted that argument, that situation completely different. The practice and it's very challenging sometimes, but the practice is to say, so you're saying this or I heard this, or you know, sometimes even validating by saying, that sounds like a lot or no, I can tell that you're very stressed.

You know, sometimes that paraphrasing, sometimes that, you know, asking for clarification. Sometimes just saying, this is what I'm hearing, is that right? It takes a level of patience. It takes reps to get yourself into that mode. Man, does it create collaboration rather than two people against each other?

Sometimes, or again, a hierarchical structure. Structure. And once you start to realize that it's amazing how the pressure becomes eliminated and you start to gain the self-trust that you are going to be able to navigate all types of interactions.

[00:25:27] Mo Fathelbab: Wonderful. Last question, Leah. What is one piece of advice that has shaped your life or work the most?

[00:25:35] Leah Marone: Ooh, I'm gonna have to pull one from childhood. you miss a hundred percent, of the shots you don't take. you know, I was a basketball player, living by right now, and I think that one resonates with me so much because, not just on the court. Was that something that, you know, I could hear my coaches saying.

But it's also just in life. You know? It's, go for it Sometimes. Welcome and embrace the discomfort. Take your shot. There's gonna be a lot of shots that come your way. And gosh, when we hesitate, when we allow our inner critic to give us all these scenarios of what if you fail? What if you feel uncomfortable?

What if you know people don't think you're competent? What if this, and this, we're missing? We're missing shots left and right. So I think that's been a big motto for me, not only as an athlete, but as a professional and the person just be on the hook for these shots. Liam, go ahead and take 'em and you're not gonna naked and slam dunk or, you know, swoosh everyone.

But that's not definitely, that's not the point. Just, get your shot in and build from there.

[00:26:40] Mo Fathelbab: And that's where we'll end it for this episode of People in Strategy. A huge thanks to Leah for your valuable insights. You can follow the People in Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Also podcast reviews have a real impact on podcast visibility.

So if you enjoyed today's episode, leave a review to help others find the show. Finally, you could find all our episodes on our website at shrm.org/podcasts. Thank you for listening and have a great day.