Unlocking Your Workplace Superpowers: Strategies for Mental Health and Resiliency

[00:00:00] Mo Fathelbab: Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, president of International Facilitators Organization, People and Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives in the field of human resources. Each week we bring you in-depth conversations with the country's top HR executives and thought leaders.

For today's conversation, I'm excited to be joined by Marjorie Morrison, executive in Residence Mental Health at SHRM. Welcome Marjorie. 

[00:00:36] Marjorie Morrison: Thank you so much for having me, Mo. I'm excited to be here. 

[00:00:38] Mo Fathelbab: Great to have you with us. Well, I wanna go back to the beginning. What? Got you into the field of mental health in the first place.

[00:00:46] Marjorie Morrison: Well, I often say that I've been in mental health my whole life because my father was a psychiatrist, so I grew up having family meetings every Sunday night. So if you can imagine like I was, we were four kids in six years and we would have to sit around the table and talk about her feelings and why did we fight?

I had two older sisters, like they were just mean, but you know, like normal siblings stuff. But my dad like. You know, analyzed us to dap. So, and then it wasn't a surprise, when I went off to college. When all my friends joined sororities, I joined like the crisis hotline. That was my, that was like my social scene in, in college.

So it really honestly wasn't a surprise to anyone that I went into mental health. So I, got licensed as a psychotherapist right out, went to grad school and, did that right out of college really. but then I've had. The whole fathom of this, of mental health space. I started working with at-risk families.

So I worked at Children's Hospital in San Diego, in outpatient psychiatry, and, worked with really some of the toughest cases, A good way to really learn, got my hours, you know, all of that for licensure. spent about five years doing that and also in schools. and then I went the way other extreme and I went to private practice and I worked with.

Cash pay higher end in San Diego. You know, private pay, things like that. Totally different. And then I got an opportunity to go work with the military and I didn't know anything about the military at all, but I, was working on the Marine Corps recruit depot, which is where the drill instructors are, and nobody was coming in.

It was the height of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, like 2008, 2009. And being an kind of an idiot, honestly, I was like, I think we need to figure out how to bring the counseling services to them 'cause they're not coming in. And I had incredible leadership there. So we gotta develop and implement a proactive mandatory counseling program, scaled it to Camp Pendleton, to infantry, and really was able to scale it Marine Corps wide.

There's versions of it that are used with other branches as well, and the whole idea is around prevention and like, why do we wait until we're in crisis to go get help? Like the earlier the better. So that really started me thinking a lot more and getting more focused and interested on the earlier side.

I then founded a nonprofit called Psych Armor. Got the opportunity to work with SHRM then where we developed a veteran hiring certification. So I did that for five years, basically moan like every five years. And then a little over five years ago, I, co-founded Psych Hub with, Patrick Kennedy, former congressman, who's been a big advocate of mental health and.

I got the opportunity to work with SHRM again when we built the Workplace Mental Health Ally certification. And so then, and then I grew that to the point where I didn't know how to run it anymore. I outgrew myself in the job and we brought in an amazing CEO who's incredible. I always say it's the greatest dream to build something from nothing and hand it over to like a real CEO that's like really growing it.

but I stayed for a year of transition and then as soon as it was over, I thought like, what do I wanna do next? And I really wanted to be in workplace mental health 'cause I feel like that is the true frontier for true change with mental health. And I've done the government, done the nonprofit, done the venture backed VC company, and.

I'm so grateful that this is what I wanted to do and that, you know, SHRM gave me this opportunity. I, it's incredible. 

[00:04:35] Mo Fathelbab: So maybe there's a link here. I'm just curious. You said when you were, at the Marines, nobody was coming up. I think today, if you're offered mental health services at a company, people are coming up.

[00:04:47] Marjorie Morrison: it is so true. You're. Spot on. The pendulum has swung so far. I'm always get frustrated when people talk about stigma. Stigma. We have stigma in some places, in some cultures, in some countries. For the most part, we have employees that are forthcoming with, it's almost like a badge of honor. I'm, bipolar, I have a DHD, I'm neurodivergent, I'm this, I'm that.

And it's a whole, you're absolutely right. It's a whole new world for employers to navigate and utilization is very high. In fact, SHRM has some research about. A, it's a big consideration when people are shopping for, you know, looking at employers is what are their mental health benefits. 

[00:05:28] Mo Fathelbab: Right? Right. And some of them have mental health benefits, not just for the employee, but family members of that.

[00:05:33] Marjorie Morrison: Yeah. Yes, that's right. I. And that is important too. But you are right, like utilization of benefits is very high right now. Which is a good thing. 

[00:05:42] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. Which is a great thing. so you mentioned another word that piqued my interest prevention. So what can people do, to help prevent mental health crises early on?

[00:05:52] Marjorie Morrison: Yeah, it's a great question. I like, often I think about it like. We talk, we think about physical health, so we don't get physically ill. Right? And we know, we know what that means. You have to eat healthy sleep, you know all those things to stay healthy so you don't get sick. Right? We really have to think about mental health the same way.

Like how do we stay mentally healthy so we don't get mentally ill and. And the, main key with that is it's different for everyone. Right. And I often talk about mental health as not one thing. It's a lot of things and we bucket it like it's one thing, but it's not to someone. It could be showing up as an eating disorder for someone, it could be a complicated grief if for someone else, it could be a diagnosis, like a, you know, bipolar or depression.

It could be. OCD, obsessive compose. There's so many different things, and so we, really have to think about it on the very personal level. Like, what is it for you? What's going on with you? And I think we have to think about our mental health every day. It has to not be a, you know, I'm going and doing something for my mental health because I'm, you know, something's wrong with me.

But like, same way with prevention. And if it is. Meditating, which could go both ways. You know, it could be that you are, like very cognitive with your thinking about, well, I'm, I, always say like. Knowing how you feel. You know that feeling. When you feel anxious or nervous or angry, you tend to have a physical thing.

Yeah. Tied to it. That's different for everybody. Sometimes it's like, you know, you feel it in your heart. Sometimes you feel it in your stomach. Sometimes you get a headache, a stress headache. Know what that is, and then be able to associate that with, okay. I need to remove myself or go for a walk or do something like that.

[00:07:42] Mo Fathelbab: So I heard some of the feelings come from different, you feel them in different parts of the body. Is that Yes. Is that stuff universal or is it still different for everyone? 

[00:07:50] Marjorie Morrison: It is different for everyone because some people. Get headaches and some people get stomach aches and some people get all of the above.

So it is, it's really, it's you, know, it's, it's like when you go and you exercise and everyone's different with how many weights they lift and, you know, do they like, like I'm really into boxing right now, you know, and I have, I was at a dinner a couple nights ago and we were all, someone was really into yoga.

Someone was really into bar class, you know, and I'm like, how cool is that? Like you gotta do whatever kind of resonates with you. So I think it is. It is personal, but yet everybody has it. Nobody doesn't have mental health. 

[00:08:28] Mo Fathelbab: Nobody escapes. 

[00:08:29] Marjorie Morrison: Nobody escapes it. Nobody escapes. Nope. 

[00:08:31] Mo Fathelbab: So let's talk about, the corporate perspective.

So what should companies be thinking about in this coming year as it relates to mental health? 

[00:08:40] Marjorie Morrison: You know what, Mo, I'm gonna be honest with you. I am learning so much from the corporate space, from SHRM. SHRM is this incredible. Organization with this lens that I don't think anybody else truly has because they have the lens.

I'm gonna start saying we, we, have the lens into small, medium, and large companies. And I truly believe that. What I always thought, and I believe that was what was. People were caring, companies were caring about. It's not what is top of mind now. And I'm getting the opportunity to meet with a lot of companies, listen to them and understand what their issues are.

And it's changed a lot. So I'll tell you where it was. mental health 1 0 1, mental health first aid, psychological first aid. Understanding what is depression, what is anxiety? What do you do when someone's in crisis? How do you help them? That is not where we're at now. Now we're hearing employers saying we don't want our employers to be burdened with feeling like they have to fix someone or feeling like they have to help someone.

And that goes both with managers and peers, right? With direct reports and peers. So what we're hearing now is. We want employees to be compassionate. We want them to have empathy. They need to have strong communication skills, knowing how to make someone feel heard and listened to, and then knowing when to stop the conversation because it's going too far, and to get them to the benefits and to get them to the accommodation or leave teams or where they need to go.

And that's twofold. Well, threefold really. One is legally, that's like where it should be. Two is it starts to get inappropriate and, blur boundaries when you're getting, you know, too involved with someone's mental health situation. 'cause sometimes, and I'm sure you've felt this way before, you can feel like you have to fix it.

And that's. Not okay. Right. And what happens, the third piece of that is that it really bleeds into burnout and you get burned out when you don't have healthy boundaries. So like I think what I'm really hearing a lot from companies now is teaching around setting healthy boundaries, having these hard conversations, and then creating, I'd say the third thing, psychologically safe environments that are consistent.

Right? And that really is a place that allows someone to feel safe. To your point to share their experiences and what they're having. But that doesn't mean that person has to fix it. And I think before we were like, what can you do to be a mini therapist? What can we teach you? And now it's like, no.

[00:11:23] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah, just 

[00:11:23] Marjorie Morrison: be thoughtful, be Pac, be communicative and refer them out. 

[00:11:28] Mo Fathelbab: So I wanna parse this line a little bit further. How do you balance having a boundary? And listening and being empathetic. 

[00:11:37] Marjorie Morrison: It's such a good question and it's so fuzzy. There's so much great and I always, 'cause sometimes I'm like asked these questions and I'm like, I literally am saying to employers Now, the reason why you don't know that answer is 'cause there isn't a black and white answer.

It is a very, very fuzzy line, and it's unique to every situation, but the truth is. There are ways to do it, and it really does stem around empathy because empathy is different than sympathy. Yeah. Right. Empathy is, I hear you. I, understand. That must be really hard and at the same time, I. It's not, sometimes I, use it like this.

If you, going back to that physical feeling, if you feel, have you had this before where someone starts to tell you their problems and all of a sudden you start to feel like you have to fix it? Yeah. And you're like, oh my God. And sometimes it can be a family member or a good friend. That's when you now know.

And, that person actually doesn't really want you to fix it. They really just want you to listen. Yeah. That's really all they want. So sometimes it's just training people on how to be an effective listener, how to have good active listening, good communication skills, and then putting it back on them on Let's talk about some ways that you can help you know yourself, fix that 

[00:12:56] Mo Fathelbab: and, so there's two implications to that.

I think one is. When I say, here's your answer, and I fix it, how does that, come across to you? Because it's too easy to say, here's what I think you should do. 

[00:13:07] Marjorie Morrison: You're right. And people do that all the time. I always say to people, when you think about who you wanna spend the most time with, yeah, it's usually your friends or your family that just listen.

They're not judgmental and they just listen. The ones that are shoving advice down your throat, like it's, nobody wants that. You know? Like nobody feels like, oh, yeah. Sometimes you ask for advice, but it's like for a specific thing. But yeah, you are right. People just wanna know. That they're hurt, that they're valued, and that their feelings matter.

[00:13:36] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. So on the other side of that, when I give advice. Maybe it feeds my own ego. Yes. I feel like I've got the answer. I feel smarter. 

[00:13:45] Marjorie Morrison: That's great insight. That's really good insight. 'cause we do, we all wanna feel valuable and I think that is what happens a lot of times with managers and subordinate kind of situations where you feel as though I need to be giving advice because that's my managerial role and that is something that.

Everyone needs to work on and you need to keep your ego out of it. You know, there is no, place for ego when someone is struggling the, A lot of times I think about it, like the biggest compliment that someone can give you is to share something that's going on with them personally. Yeah. That means they feel safe with you.

They feel that they can trust you, and that needs to be what feeds your ego. Not that you have to fix it. 

[00:14:30] Mo Fathelbab: So is it okay for a manager, as an example to say. Oh my gosh. You're dealing with this horrible divorce or separation. I've been there also. 

[00:14:40] Marjorie Morrison: Absolutely. So you touch on another thing too. I have these obsessions right now since I've, I have a little cheat sheet in my office at home where I keep a running tab of like con like trends.

I'm hearing from all of this, you know, opportunity that chairman's giving me, talking to all these different, organizations and one of them, and I'm really, I would say. Beyond interested in borderline obsessed is this notion around loss and grief. And I think what's ha, so I'm, pivoting, but I'm gonna come back to your answer.

I think what happens is we give people the space to grieve when someone dies. We expect people to grieve when someone dies. But really to your question about divorce. We're grieving all the time and we're showing up at work with grief. It could be a breakup, it could be divorce. It could be you're sending your child off to kindergarten.

It could be you're sending your child off to college. It could be that, you know, I. a whole, you're, you have a parent that's now moved in with you and you're caregiving and you're grieving that they're no longer your parent. You're like the parent. All of these things affect how employees are showing up at work.

And the beautiful thing about grief is as trite as it is to say, this too shall pass. It does get better. And sometimes all we need to do is what you said, empathize with them and let them know. You're going to get through this. 'cause the hard part is when you're going through it, you don't know. You don't know.

You just don't know. It's until you're on the other end and you're like, you know what? I was heart. I was going through heartbreak and that's why I was so off. Or I. Whatever was, or I was so angry. In fact, I just met someone who built a curriculum around toxic work environments and his whole kind of philosophy is, it's unresolved trauma.

And I'm like, what an interesting way to look at like, you know, when we don't think about as employers, and I've been a CEO twice, my last two roles. People, when they show up at work, they have all this stuff they're showing up with in addition to work in. Really our job is to get them to do their job, you know, and to work.

So it's that boundary of I care, I hear you, and still have to get your job done. So, 

[00:17:03] Mo Fathelbab: and I wanna get back to that, but what you're saying is. The trauma of their past Is showing up in their current relationships at work and that's playing out in their, isn't that 

[00:17:12] Marjorie Morrison: fascinating? 

[00:17:13] Mo Fathelbab: Okay. 

[00:17:14] Marjorie Morrison: And it makes so much sense.

Right. And so that goes to your first question about why do we wait until we're in crisis to go get help? Like think about the more we can sort of like. Figure out our trauma. 'cause we all have it. It's not like anybody doesn't have trauma. Like literally, it could be because you lived in LA and you were part of the fires that you have trauma.

It could be that you were assaulted. I mean, there's a variety of different things. Everyone has trauma. It's how we deal with it that makes it either manifest inside us or turn into what we like to say is, you know, resiliency, right? Or. The military will call it post-traumatic growth. Right?

Because you do learn a lot from difficult times. Right. And they do help you get better. So it's not all bad, but it's bad if it's sitting inside you and you're not aware of it. And it's wreaking havoc in your day job.

[00:18:09] Mo Fathelbab: So I wanna go, come back to that. So the last point though is how do we as managers, HR leaders, companies, deal with the notion of somebody's really in trouble?

We need to give them space versus we gotta get this work done. 

[00:18:26] Marjorie Morrison: That's right. Yeah. I think so. A lot of times people ask me a question about benefits and that is also something that I think is, a fallacy and isn't real. I think most companies have a lot of mental health benefits and things that, so I'm gonna come back to your question, but I'm gonna explain sort of what's the new, you know, your question about what's really going on now?

the current times. Since Covid, we've had a lot of private equity and venture capitalist VC investments in mental health. And what that has done to the space is it used to be we had what I used to call single shingles, right? Like I was in, I told you I was in private practice, you would see people around town with their little, you know, awning, you know.

Doctors so and so, and, they were all separate. Right? And if you think back at the time when we used to have like internists and, you know, or pediatricians, my pediatrician in, Los Angeles growing up was just on the corner, right? It was a, now everybody's part of a larger group and a health system, right?

So what's happening in mental health is. These providers are now some call 'em aggregators, some call them roll-ups. And so there's these larger, there's a whole bunch of them where they have networks of thousands of providers. And because of that and because they have to make an investment and have returns, they almost all take insurance.

So now all of a sudden your regular insurance, whether it's Aetna or Optum United, or Bans Anthem, or one of the blues tends to cover. These larger groups and a lot of these groups are specializing out, which to me makes me so happy. You're seeing groups that just do eating disorders or there's one that just does OCD or just does child mental health.

And so there are plenty of in-network resources in addition to EAP, in addition to all of this. And I have yet to meet a benefits person who hasn't worked so hard in, you know, there's a. Bazillion point solutions, right? They've looked at them, they've evaluated them, they picked the ones that are best for their company.

There are resources out there. So to go to your, to answer your now, to actually answer your question is that there are places to send employees that are really going to give them the right help for them now. I think one of the issues we're having right now is appropriately assessing, screening and navigating.

I think employees, SHRM has some research that, you know, 50% of employees don't feel comfortable asking what their benefits are, and I'm not gonna get the stat right, but it's something in the high seventies or something are confused about their mental health benefits. So I think we have. Really more of a navigation problem.

And I think what managers need to do is get educated on what are the benefits that exist within your company. And once you are armed with that, you can make that referral. Or you know, some companies are, have a lot of, like a whole accommodation and leave teams, you know. So I think it's knowing inside your company, where are we sending people to and then getting them there.

[00:21:31] Mo Fathelbab: I love that. So. I wanna go back to the PTSD versus post-traumatic growth. What can you say about how to get people to move from one to the other? Because I think, yeah, it's very clear that if somebody goes through a traumatic experience, they will have PTSD. That's right. But I would venture to gu some people are able to turn into growth.

[00:21:53] Marjorie Morrison: Yeah. And some people are not. Yeah. Some of it's timing. Some people take longer, so they might have more symptoms longer. We honestly, we don't know. I went through, I would say five years of being obsessed. Can you tell It's like a personality. I was saying with me on resiliency. Yeah. Like every book written on this I read.

Yeah. Like, you know, back in time, probably not as much. Now there's a lot of different theories about why some people are, and I'm really, you could say it's resilient, right? Why do some people come out of traumatic experiences better than others? I, have my own theory maybe, right? May not be right. You know, I don't know.

But I'll tell you mine is, I think we have to, it starts in childhood, really do push our kids, I. To take risks. Risks. I think risks are critical, and right now we're sheltering our kids a lot. Right? The more you take risks, when you take a risk, one of two things happens, right? It's either a success or it's a failure.

If it's a success, it gives you confidence to take more risks. If it's a failure, you all of a sudden start to think at an early age, this is the worst that can happen. Ah. 

[00:23:12] Mo Fathelbab: It's 

[00:23:12] Marjorie Morrison: not so bad. I'll take another risk and eventually you're gonna have a success, which gives you the confidence to do more. So I think that the more you build up that sort of safe within yourself, that confidence to know it really is confidence, right?

Like I can go through a hard time and I'm gonna get through it. Then you start to put yourself out there more, and I think that's my opinion of what gives you psychological strength. Now, you don't have to have it as a kid. You can have it as an adult too, but the more you shelter yourself from taking risks, this is just my opinion, the harder it is to build that resiliency because you don't allow yourself.

That opportunity to get stronger. 

[00:23:55] Mo Fathelbab: I love that. So Resiliency's come up a few times. How does one go about building his or her resilience? 

[00:24:02] Marjorie Morrison: Yeah, and I think it is this sense about it's taking risks. It's really, and that risk can be in anything. It can be in your personal life, it could be in your professional life.

It can be, you know, asking to take on more responsibilities for work. It could be. Asking someone out on a date that, you know, like, it, really, I'll tell you what I do with my kids is, we're Jewish, so we would do this like, you know, Shabbat thing on Friday nights. It's a very common practice where you say something good that happened in the week, something bad that happened, and a good deed that you did.

Right. That's a pretty common thing I always added. What's a risk that you took? Because I, I think that if you are cognizant. Of saying, I am going to take a risk this week. I would like challenge you or anyone to take and then hold yourself accountable like on Saturday or Fri a day of the week. Be like, okay, what risk did I do it?

What risk am I going to take this week? And then what did I do it? And I think all of that builds resiliency and just try it again. This is just my own, you know, perspective on it. I, think it's brilliant. 

[00:25:09] Mo Fathelbab: so what. Should HR leaders be thinking about in terms of the most modern, up to date, new offerings that are available today in order to make their, workforce healthier, mentally?

[00:25:23] Marjorie Morrison: Yeah, I think it's a combination of things. I think that it's. Understanding we, we've gone through, you asked this question about like, people are showing up with mental health, right? I think the pendulum has swung way over here and we need to bring it back. We need to stop pathologizing everything. We gave everything a diagnosis.

We're very liberal on medications right now, and I'm not saying that people don't need it, but I think we need to go back to understanding that. Everybody is processing, you know, if, you're not going through something traumatic now you will. And it honestly, it's, and so realizing that when people are showing up, and I'll give you some examples.

It's either at the macro level or the micro level that there's, trauma and I think understanding how and coming up with strategies internally. How you are going to manage that trauma when it happens and then respond to it, you know, preventatively and then it happens. So on the micro level, it could be a healthcare diagnosis, right?

So if you think about someone is, comes to you and is newly diagnosed with a medical condition, you gotta be thinking about mental health early and saying to them. Why don't you go start to see a therapist right now? 'cause you can imagine how anxious they might be. So I think thinking that happens on a micro level that the stuff we talked about grief, right?

Like it is, it's very healthy to grief. Yeah. And we have these, Elizabeth Kubler Ross back in the day had the stages of grief. Now they say they don't happen as systematically as, we thought they once did. But we do know there are stages and. Everybody's lost someone and gone through grief, and it does get better.

You know, someone once said to me, it's like throwing a rock in the water and you have these rings and eventually it never really goes away, but you, it just gets over time and it's, again, it builds resiliency too, right? So I think that on a macro level, I think. Weather, extreme weather is another thing that employers need to think about.

Mental health, I would like to see employers thinking about that are bleeding into mental health, not just at the individual level. What do I do with my employee that's, you know, that's having panic attacks or this or that, but really thinking about how does my organization, Think about traumatic events, which is, like I said, micro, macro, it could even be ai, right?

Feeling the fear of job displacement from ai. Things like it could be political, right? Administration changes, things like that. How is my company allowing people. The space to be where they need to be and at the same time do work. And I, think I go back to this creating psychologically safe environments, going back to some of the stuff I was saying earlier, which is creating spaces to learn how to be empathic, know how to make those referrals.

You know, setting psych, having psychological safety environments, and then creating healthy boundaries for yourself. I think that's the key, and knowing when I, if I set a boundary that I'm gonna stop working at six, that might affect my team. 'cause that might mean that someone else can't get anything done if it's 7:00 PM and they need it.

So sometimes it's, you know, you can't always set the boundary selfishly, but it's like coming up with policies. I think that is going to make a huge difference for what we have to come as like a new way of thinking about mental health. 

[00:28:59] Mo Fathelbab: Wow. Lots of great tips and and great advice and wisdom. Marjorie, last question.

What is one piece of advice that has shaped your work or life the most? 

[00:29:10] Marjorie Morrison: Wow. that's a great question. I think that the older I get, the more I'm leaning into my superpowers and the more, Aware of what I'm not good at. I'm actually really not good at a lot of things, and I think I spent a lot of years trying to be better at things like I'm not an op like ops person, you know, I'm not, I'm much more of a like, I like to solve problems and things like that.

So I think what I found and why I love this role at SH RM is. I get to focus on the things I think I'm good at and not do the things that I'm not good at. And I think that's like I wish younger me wasn't trying so hard just to be good at things that are hard and sometimes I think. If you're, so, if you can do your job and love it, that probably means you're good at it, you know?

And those are the things that now I'm like trying to like, you know, have that feeling like, God, I really don't like doing this. I'm probably not very good at it. So not a good, you know, I shouldn't be spending too much time doing that. So I guess that would be my, what I'm doing now. 

[00:30:18] Mo Fathelbab: Love it. Love it. Thank you, Marjorie.

Thank you. And that's where we'll end it for this episode of People and Strategy. A huge thanks to Marjorie Morrison for this valuable conversation. You can follow the People and Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Also, podcast reviews have a real impact on podcast visibility. So if you enjoyed today's episode, leave a review to help others find the show.

Finally, you could find all our episodes on our website at SHRM.org slash podcasts. Thank you for listening and have a great day.