CHRO Alignment Series: The CFO Partnership

[00:00:00] Mo Fathelbab: Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, president of International Facilitators Organization, People and Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives in the field of human resources. Each week we bring you in-depth conversations with the country's top HR executives and thought leaders.

[00:00:29] For today's conversation, I'm excited to be joined by Jane Hadley, CFO of SHRM and Jim Link, CHRO of SHRM. This episode is part of our CHRO Alignment podcast series. Today we'll be talking about CHRO CFO alignment. Welcome Jane and Jim. Thank you. Thank you, Mo. It's great to be here. Great to have you both.

[00:00:51] And I understand you both started the term about the same time, about four years ago. About four years ago. Yeah. So, Jane, I wanna start with you. You are the first CFO that we have on this podcast, so it's a pleasure. Thank you. Yes. And to kick off, pleasure is mine. Yeah. Thank you. to kick us off, tell us how you landed in this position as CFO of SHRM.

[00:01:12] Jane Hadley: So, I started at SHRM about four years ago as the, the VP controller, and I was in that role for about two years, which really, you know, rolled up my sleeves, got to know the organization, everything about the business. It was a really great opportunity to be in the weeds. and then as the, when the CFO role opened up, it was through.

[00:01:36] Jim's support and the support of, frankly, the, whole executive team, that I was able to, to transition in into the CFO role about, well, it's been officially a little over a year.

[00:01:47] Mo Fathelbab: All right. So Jim was involved from the start, but first Jane, tell us about how you've interacted with the CHRO as the CFO.

[00:01:55] Jane Hadley: There are so many where go.

[00:01:58] Jim Link: It's a long list. It's a long list.

[00:02:00] Jane Hadley: There's just, there's so many areas within the organization where, you know, Jim's world and my world overlap and, interact. salary budgeting and forecasting.

[00:02:12] Jim Link: Incentive comp.

[00:02:13] Jane Hadley: Yeah, incentive comp, retirement plans. So we work together. I would say probably at least 25% of what I do overlaps with Jim's world in one way or another.

[00:02:24] Mo Fathelbab: 25%. Yeah. What's your number?

[00:02:27] Jim Link: Yeah, I mean, it's, in that ballpark. I mean, there's rarely a day. Going by where Jane and I are not involved in some discussion about something. And right now, of course, we're in budget setting season, so it, she knows how much I detest budget setting season. And so, you know, she helps navigate the organization in its entirety through it.

[00:02:46] Yeah. But, we have to be aligned in the, and we're aligned on what head count we need to perform, what roles, how many of them there are. By department, the cost, the benefit load associated with those folks. I mean, all of those things are numbers, which Jane and I share. And I think effective CFOs and CHROs both are in the weeds with the numbers.

[00:03:06] She's just a lot more in the weeds with the numbers than I.

[00:03:09] Mo Fathelbab: Got it. And Jim, how would you describe the symbiotic relationship between the two of you?

[00:03:14] Jim Link: Yeah. I love that word, symbiotic. I do too. Yeah. You know, thing, things that require each other for survival, right? Is, the way I define somebody. And, and in, in the fact that's the way I think of the CFO and the CHRO relationship.

[00:03:28] I have worked at organizations, and have. Witnessed others working in organizations where the CFO CHRO thing doesn't work very well, where there's, they don't rely on each other or don't trust each other or don't feel like one or the other has the other's back. That's not the case with Jane and I, we help each other navigate through this organization and Jane helps me see a lens from a numerical and numerical reasoning skill and capability, which I hope I can then demonstrate for other CHROs, because if you have.

[00:04:02] Someone strong in that case, it just helps you be a better business leader.

[00:04:06] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. Love that.

[00:04:08] Alright, we're gonna see how well you all know each other and to test that out. We, are playing a game, the CHRO CFO game. It's a spinoff of the Newlywed Game.

[00:04:18] Jim Link: We're gonna knock this out of the pile.

[00:04:21] Mo Fathelbab: So let's see how well you all know each other. We're gonna ask you to write down the answers on the cue cards. Okay. And after all the questions, we're going to go back and reveal one by one. Oh, one by one, okay? Alright, so first question. All right. Number one. So, you're each answering what you think the other person would say or do.

[00:04:41] Oh, I thought that, oh, okay. So I gotta put myself in Jane's shoes. So here's the first question. Okay. How does Jane take her morning coffee? That's what you're answering. Jim and Jane, for you. How does Jim take his morning?

[00:05:00] All right. Okay. Ready for the next one? What is their pet peeve?

[00:05:06] Jim Link: Oh,

[00:05:06] Mo Fathelbab: We're getting controversial now.

[00:05:15] And I see that was easy for Jim and Jane is still struggling.

[00:05:19] Jane Hadley: Those are more vocal about my pet peeves than Jim is.

[00:05:27] Mo Fathelbab: All right, there it is. Question number three. Do they prefer virtual or in-person meetings?

[00:05:40] Question number four. I can't wait to see what that chuckle about. Question number four, what is their favorite AI tool?

[00:05:57] Next question. What is their favorite work snack?

[00:06:01] Jim Link: Work, snack.

[00:06:03] Mo Fathelbab: Work snack.

[00:06:14] All right. Next one. Who is more likely to hit reply all?

[00:06:26] And the last question. Who's more likely to send a late night email ?

[00:06:36] All right, let's reveal your answers. let's start with how did they take their morning coffee? Jane, what did you say?

[00:06:47] Jane Hadley: I said black, question mark.

[00:06:49] Mo Fathelbab: And Jim.

[00:06:50] Jim Link: And she's right. And I said, none. Diet coke.

[00:06:53] Jane Hadley: True. And that's, you cannot drink coffee.

[00:06:55] Mo Fathelbab: Wow. You both are on it so far. All right. Okay. Let's go to the next question.

[00:06:59] What is their office pet peeve? Jim, we'll start with you. What's Jane's office pet peeve?

[00:07:03] Jim Link: I think people with no gratitude.

[00:07:05] Oh yeah.

[00:07:08] Jane Hadley: I went with budgets.

[00:07:10] Mo Fathelbab: Okay. Well either those right.

[00:07:12] Jane Hadley: But Jim's is better.

[00:07:13] Jim Link: No. I don't like budgets.

[00:07:15] Mo Fathelbab: You said that, Yeah, I know. all right, we're gonna give you a half point for that. All right. Do they prefer virtual or in person? Jane, what did you say? Jim, prefers?

[00:07:26] Jane Hadley: In person.

[00:07:27] Jim Link: In person.

[00:07:28] Mo Fathelbab: You both prefer in person. So you're both correct there. Lovely.

[00:07:31] Jane Hadley: We're doing pretty well.

[00:07:32] Mo Fathelbab: You guys are doing pretty well. Indeed.

[00:07:34] Jim Link: It's gonna get worse though.

[00:07:35] Mo Fathelbab: Okay. Alright, what is their favorite AI tool? Jim, what did you say for Jane?

[00:07:41] Jim Link: I put SHRM GPT.

[00:07:43] Mo Fathelbab: Okay. And Jane, is that right?

[00:07:45] Jane Hadley: SHRM GPT.

[00:07:46] Mo Fathelbab: And is that your favorite as well, Jim?

[00:07:48] Jim Link: Yes. It's about the one, only one I use anymore.

[00:07:50] Mo Fathelbab: You guys are amazing. Okay. You really do know each other. what is. Their favorite work snack. Jim, what did you say?

[00:07:57] Jim Link: I didn't know about this one. I didn't know that you were

[00:07:59] Jane Hadley: I'm not a big snacker.

[00:08:01] Jim Link: Yeah. Okay. so I put my favorite, which is chocolate.

[00:08:05] Mo Fathelbab: Okay. Jane, what's Jim's favorite?

[00:08:07] Jane Hadley: I put candy.

[00:08:08] Jim Link: Yeah, that works.

[00:08:08] Mo Fathelbab: Alright. Close enough. Close enough. Okay. Who is more likely to reply all, Jim?

[00:08:16] Jim Link: Jane

[00:08:18] Mo Fathelbab: You both got that one wrong. And, I hope everybody's okay at the other end of this one.

[00:08:23] Jim Link: Yeah, we will not miss this last one.

[00:08:27] Mo Fathelbab: All right, so who is more likely to send a late night email?

[00:08:31] Jim Link: Jane.

[00:08:31] Mo Fathelbab: Jane. All right, well done.

[00:08:34] Jim Link: Now the other question is, who's more likely to send an early morning email?

[00:08:37] Mo Fathelbab: Oh, Jim. Okay.

[00:08:39] Jane Hadley: We joke sometimes that we have all but about four hours covered between the two of us,

[00:08:43] 'cause I'm, I stay up late and that's when I catch up on email.

[00:08:46] Jim Link: And I get up early and start on email.

[00:08:49] Mo Fathelbab: You guys really know each other well and I'm impressed. I think you guys are batting like a B plus. Is that what I'm, is that about right?

[00:08:55] Jim Link: I prefer an A minus.

[00:08:56] Mo Fathelbab: Okay, we'll give you an A minus. Alright, now that we've seen how well you know each other, let's dig into the CFO CHRO connection a little bit more.

[00:09:06] How can you tell if there's alignment? Versus if things are off. Jane, I'll start with you.

[00:09:12] Jane Hadley: Yeah. I, so luckily, I would say Jim and I have never really been off. so I, I've been privileged to have always I'd, consider myself to be in alignment with Jim, but I, think. And I feel confident saying that because we can agree to disagree.

[00:09:29] We don't always see things exactly the same way. But,

[00:09:33] Jim Link: And usually say that, we usually say, Jim, I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this one. Yeah, but I like that clarity, right. That helps.

[00:09:41] Jane Hadley: Yeah. We acknowledge that and move on. Move on. So I, I don't, I've never felt off in any way really.

[00:09:50] Jim Link: Yeah, me either. What I like about the relationship that Jade and I. Possess because it is something you possess and you wanna hold onto. Right? the, what I really like about it is that she and I often very, very much agree on the end state, right? Like, wherever it is we're going to land. But I think because.

[00:10:09] Well, first of all, Jane is, you know, significantly younger than I am, right? So the way she gets there, right, is driven by her numerical reasoning skill, her critical thinking skill and capability, even to some extent her generation, right? Because she's, she is younger and I like that, right? I think there's something for me to learn from that.

[00:10:30] So. And on the other side, I kind of have that, been there and done that. Right? I have lived in that world, for longer than Jane has lived in that world. And so between the two of us, we usually end up in, a pretty good place.

[00:10:43] Mo Fathelbab: So Jim, you've been CHRO previously. I have. How can you tell if there's misalignment or if things are off in the previous role?

[00:10:50] Jim Link: You know, it's funny because in the, last role I had in another organization, a publicly traded, company, I hired the CFO. Okay. The, one that was there prior, didn't work out. We had an extended role. We had a larger organization, and through a merger and acquisition, and we needed a topnotch CFO.

[00:11:08] So I selected her, to, because of the CEO and the, relationship I had with the CEO and the relationship I wanted to have with that CFO and it, we worked together for. I don't know, probably six or seven years. Okay. In those capacities. All right. No misalignment there. Well, no. She used to annoy the daylights outta, but, the, good news was that annoyance sometimes led to a better outcome.

[00:11:36] Mo Fathelbab: Speak more to that. 'cause I think too often in the workplace somebody's annoyed by somebody and they just write them off and they don't see the positives that can come from it.

[00:11:47] Jim Link: Yeah. If you work in a place and you're not occasionally annoyed, I don't think you're doing a good job. I mean, really.

[00:11:52] I mean, when it comes right down to it. Now what is annoyance me? What we're trying to do is, have open. General civil dialogues and discussion, and that sometimes leads to places where you don't agree on things, or you're slightly annoyed or, but my, when someone says something to me like that, Jane or otherwise, yeah, I just, I'm like, where in the world does that perspective come from?

[00:12:15] Because it may be a perspective that. I need to adopt or I need to think about it or get to that place. And that's a culture of learning and a culture of innovation. And I, think we lack that a little bit, maybe civilly today in our world. So every time opportunity I get anyway to learn something from somebody else, even if I don't agree with them, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take it.

[00:12:39] Mo Fathelbab: All right. Love it. Jane, what's the biggest challenge you've had to work through together as, C-Suite leaders to get stakeholder buy-in?

[00:12:48] Jane Hadley: The budget is on my mind 'cause we were in budgeting season. But I, would say that is probably where we have to combine forces to get C-suite alignment around what our budgeted headcount is going to be, how we're going to, approach how many heads we can add and how those heads are gonna be divvied up between departments.

[00:13:13] Getting alignment on, that type of just, it's really more of like an organizational structure conversation, I think is probably, you know, annually what we're, working to get C-suite alignment on.

[00:13:27] Jim Link: Yeah. The other one I'm thinking about right now, we, you and I have been in the throes of it for so long, we, both probably have forgotten about it, is our, how we think about incent incentive compensation .

[00:13:36] For our, employees, right? So there's sales incentive comp, which to me is sometimes easier because. You know, if you sell enough, you're going to get rewarded. But in a world like Jane and I are living in now, and most of the audiences living in right now, there are, there is a lot of things, there are many things going on out there which would lead you to believe that you can't do as good of a job or as a, and as accurate of a job, maybe is a better way to say it.

[00:14:01] Jane, setting goals. Objectives, key results, those kinds of things. And so if that's the case, then Jane and I need to be on top of our game to ensure that even in years where there's that much indecision in the marketplace and in the broader ecosystem, that we can still reward our employees appropriately.

[00:14:21] And it, for example, Jane goes with me into the comp and org committee meetings because the financial performance of our organization is so important. and she can represent that a hundred times better than I can in those meetings. And the C FFO didn't used to go into those meetings with, me, but I want her there because that's a skill and a competency and a capability that she possesses in greater, in a greater quantity than I are.

[00:14:46] Mo Fathelbab: Wonderful. Wonderful, wonderful. when it comes to language, CFOs might talk in dollars and CHROs might talk in people. How do you all bridge that gap? Jane?

[00:15:01] Jane Hadley: So I think we are both fluent enough in each other's languages that we understand the lens through which we're both approaching, whatever topic it is we're working on.

[00:15:13] So, I, yes, I'd speak in dollars, but I, like to think I also am at least fluent in people. And I would say Jim is absolutely more than fluent in dollars. So I think because we. We both have that appreciation of each other's language. I've, never felt any sort of barrier in terms of, like, oh, Jim's not getting the dollar part of this, for example.

[00:15:40] Right. He's, he's well versed in, the dollars as well.

[00:15:46] Mo Fathelbab: So something I'm taking away from this conversation is that in the C-suite, you need to be more versed outside of your own silo.

[00:15:55] Jane Hadley: Absolutely.

[00:15:56] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah.

[00:15:57] Jim Link: Yeah, and have an open mindset to continuously learn. Every executive team meeting we have, there's some nugget, something I pick up where, I'm kinda like, whoa, wow.

[00:16:07] Right? Or, I wish I would've followed that, that way, you know, usually it's admiration for the way somebody else presents something or shares something. Because today, ev our audience knows this. In the old days, you were known for the information that you had in your possession. Now you're rewarded for the information that you share.

[00:16:26] So that, that's a big difference. And I, when I first started my career, that's not, I mean, the, there were power brokers who wanted to have all the information, not that won't fly in today's. Business world?

[00:16:40] Mo Fathelbab: No, it will not. No, it'll not. Anything to add Jane.

[00:16:44] Jane Hadley: No, just that, I think what you said was spot on.

[00:16:46] There's really, as we sit around in executive team meetings, there's really no more like, oh, well this is my lane, so I'm only going to speak the dollars. Right. I, need to know enough about what's going on throughout the entire business, to, really be an effective, executive team member. I think so that, that, hit home for me.

[00:17:08] Mo Fathelbab: Thank you. I wanna also double click on something you've said twice now, Jim, which is this notion of, I'm gonna call it lifelong learning. Oh, yeah. It's, I don't think that's an option anymore.

[00:17:18] Jim Link: It's not, and it, to me, it's in a, it's a core tenet of how you build an effective organization.

[00:17:22] I think you've, heard me give this speech before, right? There are four things every organization needs to be doing very, very well these days. One is. They need to have a foundation of civility. And upon that foundation of civility, there are four pillars of which is gonna hold up the root of that business.

[00:17:36] The first pillar is a culture of collaboration, a c culture of learning, a culture of inclusion. And then finally, you know, just depending upon which, what else you need in that group, the so collaboration, cooperation. Whatever label you wanna put on it. On that fourth pillar, it's all about human interaction to make things better for the business and for the people who work in that company.

[00:18:01] Mo Fathelbab: Thank you for repeating that 'cause we need to hear it again. So, according to SAP's CFO Insights report, we've heard that finance leaders cite conflicting departmental priorities as the biggest hurdle to collaboration. Meanwhile, HR leaders cite insufficient data sharing and transparency as the number one blocker.

[00:18:22] How do these issues show up for each of you in your roles? Jim?

[00:18:26] Jim Link: Yeah, I, you just heard me reference that a little bit, right? About how, we share knowledge and information and those kinds of things. When I think about the challenges that chief human resources officers are facing today, that question that you, I mean, that to me is the tip of the iceberg.

[00:18:40] There's so many things going on in the broader economic system in which we're operating today. CHROs I know are, focused very, very much on, on ensuring that they have enough skills in the workplace to accomplish what needs to be done. And with the skills dearth that exist out there right now in our society and globally, this is worrisome.

[00:19:04] If you lay artificial intelligence over on top of that, it gets more worrisome than we have the health and wellbeing of, our employees. We, have learning and development, the identification of leaders, and the list goes on and on. So. All of these things matter, and depending upon what industry you work in and where you are as a business on the maturation level, you could be faced by one or more of those things at any given time.

[00:19:27] So yeah, it, there's, so much going on. Whether you're a CFO or you're the CHRO, it's all hands on deck and all eyes on the prize because that's what we're all gonna have to do, collabor collaboratively and effectively together in order to help our businesses succeed through these things we're seeing out there.

[00:19:46] Jane Hadley: Yeah. I think. Actually those, the challenges that you cited are actually, can be opportunities for the finance team, in terms of defining priorities, right? Because we are, we've got our eye on budgets and, you know. Resource, allocation, et cetera, so we can really have that voice to say, yes, we know you wanna do this, but if we look at it through the financial lens, we can only do X or Y.

[00:20:19] So, I, think it's actually more of an opportunity for finance if finance has the, voice at the table in terms of establishing those priorities.

[00:20:30] Mo Fathelbab: Opportunities, yes.

[00:20:31] Jim Link: You know what they have got, they, I'm looking at, they like those finance people. The finance people, you know, they have gotten here at SHRM really, really good at forecasting.

[00:20:40] It's, much more, of course, it's always a little bit art and a little bit science, right? But it's, more predictive now than it. Than it ever has been. And re we can rely on a forecast that Jane and her, team produce, if you're me, right? If you're the chief Human resources, that's not a skill I have.

[00:20:57] Right? Jane? Jane can put all these pieces together and come out with a forecast down at the bottom with that has a high degree of, velocity and predictability, right? So, so I rely upon that. Wait, whenever a, Chief Human Resources officer traditionally isn't going to have that skillset, but the way that's going to get translated into my world is if Jane sees that we're, you know, our sales are indicating that we're gonna be significantly higher.

[00:21:23] That means we have to have support mechanisms in place in the forms of form of human capital to pull that off. So if you sell more, you have to have more customer support. you have to have more salespeople to in, in order to drive those goals. So it all translates that in the future state that Jane and her team create into a world that I then get to sustain.

[00:21:42] And to me, that's so vitally important for this collaboration and cooperation. Which we, she and I have to do together because if, she were horrible at the forecasting piece, then I'm gonna be horrible at, the, having the right people at the table to get the, work done on a daily basis, so. Another value input. Could you even know you did that so well?

[00:22:03] Jane Hadley: I did not.

[00:22:03] Jim Link: Well, there we go. See, even got a compliment in there.

[00:22:06] Jane Hadley: Yeah.

[00:22:06] Mo Fathelbab: All right. Nicely done. Jim.

[00:22:07] Jim Link: Last one for the day though. Yep. Yep. Use my, use my quota.

[00:22:11] Mo Fathelbab: Alright, well zooming out a bit, on a macro level, we're at a point where we're seeing a rise of external CHRO hires rather than internal hires.

[00:22:22] So Jim, how do you foresee this impacting the corporate landscape ?

[00:22:26] Jim Link: In every way imaginable. The requirements of a Chief Human Resources Officer today and in the next three to five years will look radically different than it did in the last three, to five years. We first started talking about it being analytically journal.

[00:22:42] So Chief Human Resources officers needed to have better numerical reasoning and critical thinking skill and capability, and move away from a compliance and regulatory type of mindset to much more of a business savvy. and, Acumen, I guess it would, ambitious acumen would be the best way that I would describe that.

[00:22:59] But that's now, so what's coming is much more of a technical and what I would call an enablement mentality. So utilizing technology, utilizing artificial intelligence, utilizing the resources or the scarcity of resources that are around you, the entire skillset for our Chief Human Resources officer is gonna look different in 18 to 24, 36 months than it does even today.

[00:23:24] So no wonder. We're hiring from the outside. We're bringing in people who have different skillset because. Our, function is changing so quickly. It's actually exciting to watch. I mean, if I could go back in my career, you know, 20 years and, be at the forefront of seeing all this happen, man, I'd, be a rockstar.

[00:23:42] CHRO, right, but which you are. Well, thank you. Well, well it got to it before I know. Well, it would be more fun, but think about the opportunity now, right? To just to. Impact the world of human capital and business in such a way because you have all this knowledge, all this information, and you get to enable that. I mean, Nirvana.

[00:24:02] Mo Fathelbab: Nirvana, love it.

[00:24:03] So Jane, based on the CFO Insights report, the external issues cited as the top challenges by CFOs in 2025 are worsening economic conditions, geopolitical tension, supply chain constraints, and increasing competition.

[00:24:20] How are you currently seeing those play out?

[00:24:23] Jane Hadley: So from. SHRM's perspective. We luckily are not particularly impacted by supply chain issues. but you know, I think we've seen, we've been experiencing challenges with, you know, consumer spending the same way that probably every business is. So those, Sort of geopolitical, impacts to, to the business, I think are, felt through consumer spending behavior. And, that is, that's what we're seeing happen here, just like everywhere else.

[00:24:57] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Jim, this next question, is for you. what do you wish more CFOs knew about the CHRO role?

[00:25:11] Jim Link: There are quite a few chief financial officers, I think, who are learning more and more about the impact of human capital and I, want CFOs to, understand that effective CHROs, think about the human capital components as much as we think about the numerical components. If you're sitting in the CFO seat.

[00:25:36] I think for too long those things have been treated as mutually exclusive or mutually separate in, in organizations that you can't separate them anymore. So a good CFO and a good CHRO working together have got that. Understood and in check and are, propagating that knowledge and information amongst their own teams, but also to the benefit of the business.

[00:26:02] So if, to answer your question succinctly, if Chief financial officers understood that the human capital metric is just as important as the any financial metric. We'd be much further along in the journey of effective workplaces.

[00:26:21] Mo Fathelbab: Love it. Jane, same question for you. What do you wish CHROs knew about the CFO role?

[00:26:29] Jane Hadley: I. I think the Jim mentioned forecasting earlier, and I think the appreciation for what goes into that forecast to be able to accurately predict where the business is going, I, I is, helpful for anybody on the executive team frankly, to. Be more familiar with because it is, there are parts that are, there are, parts that are science and understanding how all of those puzzle pieces fit together at the end of the day.

[00:27:01] I, I think again, and then it's not necessarily specific just to the CHRO, but just to an executive team to work collaboratively and, effectively together, understanding those, the puzzle pieces behind the forecast and budget process, I think is, key.

[00:27:19] Jim Link: It's kind of interesting. She mentioned puzzles.

[00:27:21] we should tell this. Oh, so, so Jane, and so not just in the business world, right? Trying to solve a problem or a puzzle in this kind of case. Jane and I both are puzzle holics. Ah, yeah. So we, like to like make things right, so take disparate pieces and put them together to make a bigger picture and a bigger story.

[00:27:41] And that's the art of solving a puzzle. But it's also the art of running a business. And so when we. We collectively have that as part of our DNA. . And so, and we share that with other members of our teams as well. Right there, there's this desire to, understand something and to put it together and see what it looks like, disaggregated, as well as aggregated into something better and beautiful.

[00:28:03] Usually that's. I think how you and I, it was

[00:28:07] Jane Hadley: very eloquent, Jim.

[00:28:08] Jim Link: It's sheer luck. I've got that outlook. Sheer luck. I, but, I, there's this capability that I think we have as business leaders, and Jane and I have some common DNA there. To help, help others understand that what you put together can be better than what it is apart.

[00:28:24] Mo Fathelbab: And what's an example of that? Because I love that story. I'd love to hear an example that kind of puts it together for audience.

[00:28:30] Jim Link: Yeah. I mentioned one of them already, which is the way we incentivize our employees, we call our annual incentive plate. It's still different than a bonus structure. That, other people have in publicly traded companies or, what have you.

[00:28:41] And in our world, that's made up of various parts, right? And the biggest weight and the biggest part of that is happens to sit in Jane's world. and it's a measure that, that we use that some organizations might not, but that measure whatever it is in your respective organization. For our audience out there.

[00:28:58] I need to understand that number and how it's impacted and in our organization. Whenever Jane presents a budget report, she knows that I'm gonna listen to revenue and I'm gonna listen to expenses only slightly because the number I'm really interested in is. Which is how modified EBITDA is, how we, think about it here, Atcher, which is the, basically an effectiveness measure of how we're utilizing our, profits and, our expenses.

[00:29:25] So when, I think about that opportunity. It's in building something better together because Jane needs to own that. I need to understand it. And then on that same puzzle of an annual incentive plan, she also has to help me think about some of the things that I actually have control over, right.

[00:29:47] in that process as well. So it's collaboration, it's cooperation, it's. That willingness to learn part of that culture. We talked about innovation, inclusion, all of those things, and those cultural elements become very, very important to effectively run a business. And we're, we just, we might as well do it.

[00:30:04] We might as well set the example. So we do,

[00:30:07] Mo Fathelbab: we do. And you know, and I think you all are setting an example for our audience right now, because it's clear to me how well you all work together, how much you know each other. I, would imagine everybody listening to this episode can get their CFO and their CHRO together, at the very least, play the game.

[00:30:23] See how well they know each other, and maybe answer some of these questions. I'll bet you it'll help them. I

[00:30:28] Jim Link: that, that would be fun. That would be great. we should moderate some of them, Jane, just to see how they do. Yeah. Wouldn't that be fun? I like, I could think of a pla a few places to start actually would be fun.

[00:30:38] Mo Fathelbab: All right, last question, Jane, I'll start with you. What is one piece of advice that has shaped your personal or work life?

[00:30:46] Jane Hadley: Oh, goodness. It probably sounds cliche, but don't sweat the small stuff. Right. I think you can, I try to take a step back and if it's something that at the end of the day is not terribly significant or isn't going to have a, huge impact one way or another, I, try to.

[00:31:13] Not let it bother me as much, which has worked well. I don't know if I can say it's worked well, but it's in theory, yeah, in theory. In theory, I do try practice. Yes. it's an evolving skill, I guess.

[00:31:29] Jim Link: thank you. What about you, Jim? It's actually related to, what Jane said. I, learned many years ago that if I was going to successfully navigate.

[00:31:38] In an executive role in an organization, I needed to learn how to compartmentalize things. . Yeah. So I, it, the way I do it, it's almost like a, an old fashioned filing cabinet in my head. I, like literally open the drawer and put whatever it is that, is eating at me in that filing cabinet, and I shut it.

[00:31:59] . I lock it away until I'm ready to open it up and deal with it. And I, think people, I, hope other people have that skill because sometimes I think that's actually helped me survive. And I mean that literally survive, navigate through tough times, right. Get, through things. It, whether it's was personal right?

[00:32:17] With, family or business or whatever. That ability to lock something away until you. Had the capacity to deal with it, I think is, for me anyway, has been a survival instinct.

[00:32:27] Jane Hadley: And you, model that. Well, I've tried to learn that from you to say, okay, this isn't where, I don't have the head space for this.

[00:32:36] That's, it's this particular moment. So, yep. We'll,

[00:32:38] Jim Link: we'll put it. Yep. Pick it up. Let's put it away, store it away. In that, in my, my, in my head, it's a filing cabinet. Yep. Let's put in that filing account until we need to open that drawer and learn from it or manage it or deal with it.

[00:32:49] Mo Fathelbab: Thank you both and that's where we'll end it for this episode of People and Strategy.

[00:32:54] A huge thanks to Jane and Jen for your valuable insights.

[00:32:57] Jim Link: Thank you. Thanks Mo so much. It was a pleasure. It's great to see you again. Better. Great to see. Cheers. Thank you.

[00:33:02] Mo Fathelbab: Thanks for tuning in. You could follow the People and Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcast. Also podcast reviews have a real impact on podcast visibility.

[00:33:12] So if you enjoyed today's episode, leave a review to help others find the show. Finally, you could find all our episodes on our website at SHRM dot org slash podcasts. And while you're there, sign up for our weekly newsletter. Thanks for joining us, and have a great day.