Let's Talk About Pay: Hard Conversations and Negotiation Strategies

This transcript has been generated by AI and may contain slight discrepancies from the audio or video recording.

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Ben Zwieg: If you take care of your people, they'll take care of your company and, and that, and everything else is commentary.

You know, that, that is the essence of running a good business. Like, uh, you know, standing on one foot. And, you know, I think being proactive in promotions is sort of the first best thing to do. You know, if you can, if you can offer someone a, a pay increase or a title. Before they're expecting it. Wow. That, that like pays dividends.

Anne: Having conversations about pay can feel really daunting, whether you're a professional, hoping [00:01:00] to advocate for yourself or a manager striving to build trust and transparency, and you can imagine just. Trying to build up that confidence to even bring up the subject overall, yet as data from SHRM's.

Latest employee benefit survey reveals the world of compensation and benefits is rapidly evolving, bringing both fresh opportunities and new challenges. To the table, we'll unpack the latest trends in pay, explore negotiation strategies that work and tackle psychological and social barriers that often stand in the way of meaningful dialogue.

Today we're joined by Ben Zweig, CEO of Revelio Labs and author of Job Architecture, Building a Language for Workforce Intelligence. His expertise in labor market analytics and occupational transformation will help us make sense of what is exactly changing here and what you can do. To prepare. So Ben, welcome to All Things Work.

Ben Zwieg: Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Anne: Well, Ben, it's really great to have you on [00:02:00] this episode. We know that this can get complex when people start to maybe overthink it a little bit, so we'll try to simplify it and provide great guidance here. Let's start from the employee's perspective. It's a lot of our audience tuning in.

Um, you know, let's, let's dive in by talking about how you can approach pay negotiation. By using data. For example, the SHRM's latest employee benefits survey from 2025 shows healthcare, retirement, and flexible work arrangements. They came out as the top valued benefits, and that's actually a trend SHRM has been seeing year after year.

So this is something that's been staying really true in consistent. For employees and for employers. So from your perspective, how can professionals use data like this report to prepare for negotiations when discussing pay and even benefits with their employer?

Ben Zwieg: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, employees, job seekers really need to be as informed as the other side of the market and very often are [00:03:00] not.

So I would say for any negotiation, you know, you really need to know. What's even on the table. And of course, pay, you know, direct, you know, direct money like that, that is, that is a factor that, that people care about. But there's also all sorts of other factors that people care about, like you mentioned.

So a lot of the information about what, what types of non-compensation forms of total rewards companies offer. Are out there in the public domain, you know, get data from Glassdoor, from wherever, just to know, you know, what do people like about this company? What do they not like? How powerful is the credential?

Um, what are the exit options? What's the work-life balance? Like, all of these things matter. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And sometimes you're not gonna get what you want from a certain company. So, you know, if you really care about work-life balance, and that's just not the way it operates at. Goldman Sachs, you know, [00:04:00] don't bother, you know, don't even look.

So, so, you know, make sure you're looking in the right places. Um, and then, you know, again, with any negotiation, you know, we're, we're also trying to find out what's valuable to you that is inexpensive for the company to offer, and what is not so valuable to you that the company might value a lot. So, so that, that's the essence of good negotiation, is finding a good.

A good way to partner to get everyone to, everyone to win.

Anne: And that really like reminds me. So I would, I would go through, uh, job interviews on a personal note. And uh, you know, my older sister, I would always call her 'cause she was so good at these things and I would say, oh my gosh, I'm so nervous. What if they asked me what I'm expecting with pay?

Like, I don't know how to answer that with coming off. Like, I, I'm afraid that they're gonna not. Want me if I mention a certain range or something like that. And she always told me, you know, you, you always tell them, you know, you're looking at the whole package. You're not just looking at just salary, not just looking at, that's a good answer.

Specific events. [00:05:00] Talking about how the culture fit also benefits you as well. Benefits go beyond that as well. So like you said, researching the company, being smart about like what, what you already know about them and what the reviews say. Uh, so I think. You know, I, I love that you brought that up. It, it really just reminds me of what I've been told, kind of when I was nervously going into these, these types of situations.

So I think a lot of us can walk away with that. Um, useful advice.

Ben Zwieg: I think it's a great point also, I mean, pay directly. Is very often like not being negotiated directly anymore because of pay transparency. Yeah. 'cause now it's all this new legislation that you have to list pay ahead of time.

Anne: Mm-hmm.

Ben Zwieg: Don't get me wrong, there's still some negotiation.

Anne: Yeah.

Ben Zwieg: You know, on direct compensation, but it's, uh, it's more about those other factors now than it was in the past.

Anne: Absolutely. Yeah. I think pay transparency has, you know, played a big role. Um, and that kind of dives into the next question, you know, for some negotiating pay and benefits. Can be really intimidating, [00:06:00] like how I felt that intimidation personally.

Uh, you don't really know how to start the conversation. How do you approach this? You know, you don't wanna be too casual, like, Hey, what are the Bennys? And, but you also don't wanna be, maybe you, you don't wanna take it so seriously to the point where you're almost paralyzing yourself. So let's break it down a little bit.

What are some of those psychological and social barriers that may prevent individuals from actually advocating for themselves successfully?

Ben Zwieg: Yeah, it's, it's really tricky. I mean, you know, interviews are tough because they're, they are two-sided, but they feel one-sided. So, you know, candidates really feel like they, they are trying to, you know, impress employers.

And, but, you know, the employer also feels like they have to, they have to sell the opportunity to the candidate. I mean, as someone who, who interviews a lot, I mean. You know, there are definitely some people where I, I, you know, I leave that interview thinking, I will bend over backwards for this person.

Like, I [00:07:00] really want them and, and you know, whatever we put in the pay range, I just like, you know, am willing to, to be flexible on that because they're awesome. And then other people where, you know, I feel the opposite and I feel like, you know, I know we listed this pay and like maybe. It's kind of an uncertain bet and, you know, maybe there'll be a good fit, but who knows?

And, you know, I don't wanna like, take a chance, um, if, if it's at a, if it's at a high price point. So, you know, you gotta like, feel out the situation and it's, it's very tough to like legitimately connect with someone when you're in this kind of forced, um, you know, performative, um, relationship. But I think it is possible, like, like my recommendation is really to try to break down that formality and really try to connect with someone deeply.

Because number one, it's just a way to build connection and, and, you know, present yourself well. But also it's a [00:08:00] way to get information because then someone's guard is down and they, and they, they'll tell you the real deal. They'll open up about how they feel, how they're leaning. You know, one thing, one thing some people ask in interviews is, you know.

Can you tell me what you're thinking of My candidacy right then and there. I, I've had people ask me, you know, like, do you think I'm a, you know, do you think I, I've got the right skills for this role? Like, what, what do you think? I don't know if I would go so far as to recommend that approach, but. You know, if, if the moment, if the moment strikes, it's not that crazy.

Anne: Do you have any other, you know, tactics, you know, practical steps that people can really take to try to overcome these barriers? Especially when it comes to maybe that confidence they're, they're trying to boost right there and then to do it.

Ben Zwieg: Yeah. You know, I, I, I once heard a quote, I forget who, who said it, but they, they said, um, that you should be applying for the job [00:09:00] above your job.

That you're applying for. So, so, you know, think about, you know, think about yourself as applying for the job that you will grow into, because really a good candidate is someone that can exceed expectations and like rise to, you know, greater challenges and take initiative and all that. So I think by, by kind of being ambitious in, in what you.

In what you wanna do in that role that kind of forces the conversation about like. How, how, you know, how much opportunity is there for me to create more value for the organization? How can I play a bigger role? How can I be as productive as possible? How can I grow? And, and I think that is, that is nice to hear from, you know, as an employer, you'd like to see, oh, this is someone who's gonna, who's gonna crush it?

Anne: Let's move on to some practical strategies. So Ben, can you walk us through, you know, the step-by-step process you recommend for [00:10:00] professionals who are getting ready to negotiate their compensation and benefits if they're considering a new role at a different organization?

Ben Zwieg: Yeah, so I think, I think it's worth remembering that like what we get out of the job is not just the pay, you know, we, we are, we are not simply, you know, transacting money for time.

We, we are getting something that is gonna live on our resume forever. We are getting a credential, we're getting experience. We get to be surrounded by people you know, who. We may wanna learn from. So I would, I would say the first thing is to, you know, think about the job holistically and, and then, you know, put your best foot forward, of course.

And, and, you know, present yourself well, you know, and very seriously evaluate the position, the company, the industry, the role, you know, all the different facets of, of satisfaction. Um, do. Plenty of [00:11:00] research. Um, I, you know, and, and again, there's so much data to Yeah. To check out. And then, and then, yeah. As, as you know, going through this negotiation, I would say, you know, focus on the, the things that are more important to you than they, than they cost to the company.

And, and vice versa, you know, the things that are not as important to you and you're willing to, you know, take a hit on, um, but might be very costly for, for a company to, to, um, to concede on. So, so, you know, choose your battles wisely. Um, you know, pay attention to the comparative advantages and, you know.

You know, be bold, but also, you know, sensitive and pay attention to nuances. So, yeah, I mean, all of that is, is maybe fairly generic advice, but hard to sometimes keep it all in mind, um, when you're going through this kind of high stakes, high pressure, um, you know, situation.

Anne: Now let's go to the other situation that a lot of people find themselves in.

You [00:12:00] know, they've been at a company for a few years, they really led, you know, these high visibility projects and now they're feeling I can do more. I can get paid more for what I do. That's a promotion opportunity. And they're trying to, you know, almost like hype themselves up into approaching that conversation.

'cause it is. It is so intimidating. 'cause you don't wanna come off like too cocky, but you do wanna come off confident enough to say, you know, Hey, I, I, I deserve this. And also the company deserves me to be promoted as well for business goals. So how do you, how would you suggest a person really approach that conversation with their direct manager or whoever above?

Ben Zwieg: Yeah, I mean, I think, um. We, we just had a newsletter on this that, um, that the, that what, what really dictates someone's career growth is whether they are in a company that promotes aggressively or not. So, you know, choosing the right company from the get go is. Is [00:13:00] important. So, so I wanna sort of caveat this and say like, make sure you're in the place that, that, uh, encourages, you know, internal upward mobility.

'cause some organizations don't or can't, so, so, you know, being in the right environment, I, I'd say is first and foremost. Um, but then, you know, I think, I think as going as you're going through these conversations, I think the focus should really be on your contribution. I, I think, you know. I think the, the best approach is to kind of use the language of contribution and, and talk about your value.

How much you, you know, maybe have done for the company, how much you can continue to do for the company or the group and, and just, you know, be, be bold and be, um, you know, don't, don't hold back and, um, and, you know, paint, paint the picture for them about, you know. What you can do if, if you're given a bigger, you know, more responsibility, a bigger [00:14:00] role, um, more discretion because that, that's really what it's about.

I think the worst way to approach this conversation is like, well, I've kind of been here for a year or two years and, you know, it seems like the right time for me to get a pay increase. So like. When am I gonna get that?

Anne: So let's take the labor market into perspective here. We're all thinking about it on top of all this confidence approaching the conversations, the, the labor market is impacting not only how we're treating our jobs, but how companies are.

Functioning essentially. So you wrote a book, and I'm gonna bring the title back here. Job Architecture, building a Language for Workforce Intelligence. Can you share some themes from your book that could be applied to the employee perspective about, you know, pay equity?

Ben Zwieg: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, so really, really the, the essence of the book is about, is about taxonomies and standardizing occupations.

You know, I, I think, you know, I, before, before being in, being a labor economist and in [00:15:00] people analytics, I, I worked in finance. I was at, uh, I was at a hedge fund and, and in finance, everyone's got their Bloomberg terminal. They're all looking at. Same data in a standardized way, and that is not the case in labor markets.

We don't have that same ubiquity and standardization, and I think there are a lot of reasons why that's not the case, but one, one primary reason is because there are millions and millions of people in the world that standardize financial market data and they are called accountants. Mm-hmm. That is like a role that we all know exists.

We're very familiar with it. Right. They are standardizers, they, they standardize information so that it can be consumed. And you know, with labor markets, we, we really don't have that. We don't have a good common language for what is this job, what do they do, you know, how does it progress? You know, like when people talk about a job, sometimes we know what it means, but very often we don't.

Um, and it's getting even harder because the occupational landscape is transforming. There's so [00:16:00] many people that. Take a job and then six months later, you know, they find themselves doing a totally different set of things. So the, the, the work activity, the task mix within, within jobs change very rapidly.

So there's a big challenge in how to standardize. Jobs, how to standardize information. So that in, in my mind, is really the essence of standardization and, and ultimately equity and comparability. So if, if, if we're interested in pay equity, um, we need to benchmark people who do the same work to other people who do that work.

So we, we need, we need a, a. Category of people that should be paid the same amount, that do the same collection of things. And you know, we think of that as an occupation, um, like an occupation, as a, you know, cluster of similar jobs. [00:17:00] And jobs are similar if they have the same work activities, if they have the same tasks.

So, so that's, that's really, I think. The way to think about it, the way, the way I recommend thinking about it. Um, and once we're able to standardize, then, um, then pay benchmarks and, and ultimately, you know, equity becomes, becomes a lot easier.

Anne: I'd love to get into. A few scenarios to see how both employees and people managers can approach these difficult conversations about pay.

But first, let's take a quick pause for a brief message about a related SHRM learning opportunity for our HR professionals tuning in today. Hey everyone. Today's episode dives into pay and benefits, but as an HR professional, how do you become your organization's go-to expert in these areas? SHRM's Total Rewards Specialty Credential is designed for HR practitioners who want to master the evolving landscape of [00:18:00] employee compensation, benefits development, and recognition.

This credential equips you with the skills to build competitive, equitable, and engaging rewards programs that drive business results. If you're watching on YouTube, just click the link above to learn more or check out the episode description for details. Now, let's get back to the conversation. Let's walk through some real world scenarios, managers, you know, might face, and let's hear your advice on how to respond really with empathy and effectiveness.

So scenario number one, this is around an employee coming. To you about remote work. We know that this is a common discussion, so they say, I've noticed that flexible work arrangements are becoming more common in our industry based on my research. I believe a hybrid schedule could help me maintain productivity and work-life balance.

Let's say an ideal scenario, you have the authority to approve this. What steps would you recommend a manager take to [00:19:00] approach the conversation and ensure the flexible work arrangement is set up for success for both of them?

Ben Zwieg: Yeah. So I happen to, I happen to agree, so it's a little hard for me. You know, I, I think, uh, I think flexible work arrangements are.

Very productive for society. I think there's like lots of great research on that, but to the extent that there are some downsides, I would be very upfront about those downsides and say, you know, well on Tuesdays we usually have this meeting. It's really good when we can whiteboard and brainstorm and you know, I'm a little worried about that.

And you know, if you're commuting at this time, you know something usually comes in. You know, I really need to get in touch with you and blah, blah, blah. You know, like whatever the concerns are, I, I would, I would be very upfront about those concerns and, and then, and then wait for a reaction because, you know, this person might have a unique view of what that means to [00:20:00] them.

They might say, oh, yeah, that's totally fine. I was just talking about like. You know, walking my dog at lunch, you know, like maybe that's all they want, right? In which case, no problem. Or you know, or maybe they really want to like move upstate and be, you know, not local, in which case that's a major concern because.

They're probably not gonna, you know, like they may say, oh, it's fine. I could like commute in twice a week and commute an hour and a half. But is that really sustainable? I, I would think not. So if there are requirements around, you know, being in the office 1, 2, 3 times a week, then you know. It's, it's probably worth getting to the bottom of what they are really looking for.

Anne: Mm-hmm. That's smart. Yes. So let's say the next scenario is around professional development opportunities. Another big topic for us here. So let's say your employee says, I'm interested in advancing my [00:21:00] skills and have identified a higher education program relevant to my role. I would very much like to explore whether the company could support tuition reimbursement.

Now to jump off of this SHRM's latest employee benefits survey, found almost half of organizations approximately 45% offer undergraduate or graduate tuition assistance. So in this scenario, however, your organization does not have this type of reimbursement benefit. So how would you recommend a manager really approach this conversation to empathetically, but also clearly explain, um, you know, how, how this is handled in the company.

Ben Zwieg: Yeah. So, and, and I, I, I think I've seen that that share is actually declining, like reimbursement is less common than it used to be. Um, which is kind of an interesting trend. I mean, I think, I think it depends a lot on the company culture, but I, I'll, I'll share from my experience, because in my, in my company, we, we don't, we don't offer reimbursement.

And, [00:22:00] and I think, I think my. My response and then, and then I'll try to generalize it from there. But, but starting, starting with, with my own personal biases is that there's a lot to learn on the job and there's a lot of ways to learn something. So formal education is one path of many paths, and now it's becoming easier and easier to, to.

Learn on the job, you know, to, you know, develop expertise in new emerging skills. And, you know, if someone wants to, you know, if someone says, oh, I really wanna, you know, figure out how to use Claude code and like vibe code and app

Anne: uhhuh,

Ben Zwieg: then, I mean, this is a little bit of a harsh response, but I think I would say, great, go for it.

Like. Do it, you know, nights and weekends and, you know, if you become better at your job and more productive, then fantastic. Everybody wins [00:23:00] and you know, you'll eventually be more valuable and get paid more. And, you know, that's an investment that you can make. My skepticism around formal education is that it's, it's, it's probably more valuable as a credential than as, as an actual way to learn.

And, and that, that makes me think that it may be used to, you know, send a signal to future employers and, and have more external labor market power, which, you know, doesn't seem like the smart thing to subsidize as a current employer. So, yeah, I, I'd say like for, for our kind of culture where, where, you know, we pay people more, if they're doing better, I'd say that answer is fine.

Um, I also think it's okay to say, sorry, that's not our policy. Nothing I could do. Yeah.

Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes being a little [00:24:00] straightforward.

Ben Zwieg: Yeah, yeah.

Anne: Is okay. It's okay. Okay. So final scenario. Let's say an employee comes to you and directly asks for that promotion. We mentioned how the employee can approach this now the man, now the people manager side, however you know that promotion is really not possible in the immediate future due to budget constraints, which we know companies are facing right now, or other factors that may be really outside your control as a people manager.

How would you recommend this person really approach this conversation? Acknowledging the limitation, but also trying to maintain engagement within that employee?

Ben Zwieg: Yeah. You know, there, there's, um, there's an expression that this reminds me of where someone says, you know, if, if someone, if someone asks you for a promotion.

You say, no, it's, it's almost too late. You almost lost that person. So, so you know that, that's, uh, you know, there's, um, there's, it's, it's very hard to [00:25:00] recover from that. Like, if no is the answer that's gonna be, that's gonna be disengaging. But if, you know, the alternative is even worse. Like if you, if you string that person along.

Then that will breed resentment and further disengagement and, and that's just kind of a disaster. So I think, I think, um, I think the, the better, the lesser of two evils is to be very direct and say, you know, we're constrained. I'm so sorry. But also, also try to try to like. Validate, you know, the, you know, sometimes, sometimes it is just symbolic.

So sometimes someone wants that promotion because they want the title or they wanna be acknowledged for doing good work. And so to the extent that you can validate that, maybe, maybe that does get them something that they, they [00:26:00] really want deep down. And then maybe there are other kind of non-compensation related things that you, that you can, that you can give them.

You know, maybe you can say, I mean. It's really just because of budget constraints. Maybe you can offer a title change or maybe you can say, you know, I really want you to take the lead on this new project. Or, you know, or you can, you know, have more flexible work if that's what you want. Or, or something, something that you can give.

But, but I would, I would at least symbolically gesture. Your, your, um, your alignment with them.

Anne: I, I agree, and I, I think you also have to take into consideration by the time that employee's approaching that conversation, they've looked at all their options. That could be like options externally, and you just wanna make sure at the end of the day, um, you're being, you're showing up for your employees, well, as much as showing up for the business, especially if you wanna, if you wanna really retain that employee, uh, you know, if they're really valuable and you don't wanna lose them, even if you can't [00:27:00] offer everything.

You know, I think what you, what you recommended is a really great balanced approach.

Ben Zwieg: Yeah, I mean, one, one other thing that I would say is that, um, you know, there's another expression that, um, you know, if you take care of your people, they'll take care of your company and, and that, and everything else is commentary.

You know, that, that is the essence of running a good business. Like, uh, you know, standing on one foot. And, you know, I think being proactive in promotions is sort of the first best thing to do. You know, if you can, if you can offer someone a, a pay increase or a title increase before they're expecting it.

Wow, that, that like pays dividends. I mean they, they, that creates so much goodwill and, and that, that is something that, that I would encourage if you can be proactive about this. You know, think about like who might be overdue for something and try to beat them to the punch. 'cause if you could get there before they do.

That's, that creates like such a fantastic environment and, and an [00:28:00] understanding that you take care of your people.

Anne: Mm-hmm. Proactive, not reactive. I love it. Uh, yeah. Ben, thank you so much for joining us on All Things Work. This has been a. An enlightening conversation, actually fun, really to talk about, even like some personal stuff that I, I didn't realize were, you know, so common for people to, you know, question as well.

So thank you so much for breaking down a lot of the complex things, um, and, and guiding us through, you know, both the employee and people manager side. It's really helpful today.

Ben Zwieg: Yeah. Thank you. This was so fun.

Anne: All right, that's all for this week. We'll catch you next time. If you enjoyed our conversation today, be sure to subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcast, so you never miss a new episode.

Also, did you know All Things Work is more than a podcast? That's right. We're also a weekly newsletter that includes in-depth articles and the latest research from SHRM To keep you in the know, just head to SHRM dot org slash all things work to sign up. Plus follow SHRM on social media to view the latest clips and join the conversation on [00:29:00] game-changing topics.

That are redefining the world of work. Lattice is the HR platform where people plus AI succeed together to help your workforce crush it. No regrets. Visit lattice.com/no regrets

Ben Zwieg: SHRM.