The Office Marriage: Therapy Techniques for Happier Work Relationships

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 Not every manager employee relationship is smooth sailing, and when there's friction, it can affect more than just the two people involved. If you're looking to be a better, better manager or simply want a more positive work experience, what if you could use proven techniques from therapy? Yes, therapy to strengthen connections and resolve conflicts.

 

Joining us today is Olivia Russak, a licensed marriage and family therapist. Our conversation will go beyond the four office walls and focus on how managers and employees can really apply therapy based tools traditionally use her personal growth and that relationship building to create a healthier workplace culture for themselves and.

 

Everyone around them. Now today we are framing the discussion around SHRM's HRX maturity model, which evaluates what low average and high maturity looks like across different HR functions in an organization, including the talent related areas like employee experience and leadership and manager development that we will dive into today.

 

So SHRM introduced is HRX Maturity Model in our recent research report, the Business Case for HR Excellence, and you'll be hearing a lot more about it in the coming months. So back to Olivia. Welcome to All Things work. 

 

Thank you, Anne. It's so great to be here. 

 

So excited to have you. We know this is a little bit of a switch up for all things work, so very excited to take this angle today.

 

So you've worked with, you know, you've worked in multiple academic and clinical settings. You focus on trauma recovery and even couples therapy, which is our little star here for today. And you've also worked with professionals across industries such as education, tech, and even finance. So walk us through how your experience with interpersonal dynamics and therapy really can translate here into the workplace and the challenges in a manager employee dynamic.

 

Yeah. Thanks Anne. Um, and before we get into things, I do just wanna share, I'm gonna be talking about specific concepts and strategies from therapy today. What I'm sharing is not a replacement for therapy. Mm-hmm. 

 

So 

 

if you're listening to this and you're feeling distressed by things like anxiety or depression caused by or worsened by your workplace dynamic, I really recommend reaching out to a licensed professional.

 

Yes. 

 

Um, just wanna put that out there. 

 

Thank you for that note. We appreciate it. Yeah. 

 

Yeah. Um. So to frame our conversation today, I'm gonna bring in a quote from one of my couple's therapy heroes. Her name's Esther Perel. May have heard her. She's pretty popular, but when she talks about relationships at work, she says, we all bring a relationship legacy to work with us.

 

Okay. She calls it a resume, um, which I think is kind of cute. 

 

That is adorable. 

 

Yeah. And you know, this. Something that I am trained in a lot as a therapist, you know, from the first days of grad school, we have to learn about how our relationship history impacts our work. And I think that in a business context, a lot of managers are, um, are not served in bringing the same type of ethos in.

 

Um, and I think understanding how our work relationship history, our family relationship history, our romantic relationship history impacts how we interact, um, in a workplace. Um, so that's one concept that I think is so fascinating to bring in therapy and connection to work. Um, but another concept that I wanna talk about today is how our brains are wild wired for survival in a relationship context.

 

We talk about that through connection. Connection keeps us safe. And that's very true in the workplace. But I think a particular thing with work is that it is quite literally related to our survival through being paid. Mm-hmm. And so a lot of the times when we feel our survival is threatened, our body goes into what's called fight, flight, or freeze.

 

Um, we have these structures in the brain that tell us there's no difference between being chased by a tiger and being given feedback at work. So understanding the fight, flight, freeze response at work, I think is one of the best tools to use in understanding how to make more rational decisions instead of just reacting from that response.

 

I'm gonna think about that anytime I get feedback from now on. Never would've, never would've thought of it in that way. Um, and I, I am curious, uh, just on my end, you know, I really think, um, you know, a lot of. What goes into any type of relationship, you know, like we said, we're going beyond, you know, the four walls of the office.

 

We're not, we're not just sticking to that ba 'cause it really does, like you said, extend into the personal life, your personal relationships. Um, is that foundation of trust Yes. Between you and the other person. Um, I was joking with our producer Melody. It's like the circle of trust that Robert De Niro says in his movie, and so meet the parents.

 

Mm-hmm. And so it. But it really is a foundation between the two. And when that trust isn't there, it can really, you know, crumble the rest of what you built upon that foundation. Right? 

 

Yes, a hundred percent. And thank you for bringing that up, because that's like, you know, trust is, again, if we're bringing therapy concepts into the workplace, trust is the number one tool that we use as therapists to do our work.

 

Mm-hmm. We say that the relationship is the cure in some theories of therapy. Mm-hmm. Um, and. But one thing that I think is important in understanding trust is that. All human relationships go through cycles of rupture and repair. A rupture is a breakdown or strain in that trust. And as therapists, we are trained to expect ruptures to happen in relationships, not to avoid them.

 

And we understand that often in healing ruptures and going through the repair process, that's actually more healing than avoiding rupture in the first place. Um, and again, I think that's a helpful tool in the workplace to understand that. It's not just how do we avoid conflict, it's how do we anticipate it and then move through it effectively, which is also one of things I'm constantly saying to my couples.

 

Can't, you can't avoid conflict. That's just kind of the nature of, you know, being in a workplace and being in any type of relationship. So I love that you brought that up. You know, you're not like running away from it. Um, but you are learning and developing skills on how to handle it in, in the best way.

 

Uh, communication is key in any relationship. Right. So you talked about that. Those, you know. Ruptures. Um, and, and so if you were a fly on the wall, let's say at any given workspace, it doesn't have to be the traditional office, um, what would be some of those first signs you'd indicate you'd spot that would indicate in manager employee relationship might actually be heading towards some trouble?

 

Yeah, so I'd be, I'd wanna look out for two different types of ruptures. Okay. First would be confrontation, ruptures, and another would be withdrawal ruptures. Mm-hmm. They're pretty actually named. Mm-hmm. Confrontation ruptures are obvious. You know, they might be like actual arguments, they might be visible.

 

Frustration in the body language. 

 

Mm-hmm. 

 

Someone walking out of a meeting and you know, visible signs of anger or distress. 

 

Those 

 

in, in, in my world are actually easier to manage than withdrawal ruptures because they're quieter withdrawal ruptures. They might, you know, look like someone getting feedback and saying, okay, and just kind of shrugging it off instead of engaging with it.

 

It might look like disengagement, kind of just doing the bare minimum of what's they're responsible for. Mm-hmm. Um, and those are the ones we wanna look out for. 'cause as a therapist. The literature says a withdrawal rupture between me and my client leads to. Um, ending therapy and I, I think we can apply the same concept to the workplace mm-hmm.

 

With resignation. 

 

Mm-hmm. And like, and like you said, like sometimes, um, it can be overlooked because like it's quieter and often in, and even in conflict when people feel like. They're being, they're being calm or quiet. What really is, you know, they're pulling back maybe. Yes. And it comes off like it's harmless, but it actually is doing quite a bit of damage no matter what type of relationship.

 

You know, you're discussing this one in particular. 

 

Mm-hmm. 

 

Uh, so I, I love that you brought that up. Um. Could you share some examples of maybe some therapy exercises? I know you touched on some, uh, to promote that healthy dynamic between that manager and that employee position just kind of adapted from what you'd suggest in maybe a counseling session.

 

Totally. Um. And I think first before giving some specific strategies, I wanna talk again, more high level about some concepts. Mm-hmm. Um, and one concept that I think is really important is in the workplace is understanding power dynamics. 

 

Yes. 

 

Um, a manager influences compensation, promotions, project assignments.

 

Um, and so that's a, that's an important dynamic to consider when we're talking about repair. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna use a couple analogies here. If I'm working with a couple. If it's a healthy relationship, I'm assuming that they have equal decision making power, equal responsibility for repair.

 

Now we have that and then we have, let's say a parent child dynamic. They do not have equal responsibility in managing repair. Right. We, we kind of assume the parent holds more responsibility. 

 

Yeah. 

 

And now this isn't a perfect 100% metaphor, but I kind of want managers to almost think about their power dynamic in the parent sense that if there's a rupture.

 

They have a little bit more responsibility to move towards repair than the employee because of how much power they have over the employee. 

 

Mm-hmm. 

 

Um, so bringing self-awareness to the power dynamics that are in the room with you and your employee is super, super important. Um, which, that brings me to then my next kind of, um, therapy, exercise, or technique that I would suggest.

 

Okay. Which sounds simple, but first and foremost is self-awareness. As the manager, are you noticing going into fight or flight in certain meetings with your employees? Are you noticing getting defensive? What's your relationship to control? If someone is asking you a, asking you a question, are you taking it as a personal attack or simple curiosity?

 

Um, so noticing your own reactions. Then using some strategies like breathing, meditation, maybe your own, getting your own support to better what we call regulate and engage from a place of connectedness rather than reaction. 

 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

 

So, from there, let's say, okay, I, I'm feeling regulated, you know, I've been in the pattern with this employee, but I'm doing my work.

 

I'm getting regulated. Then I wanna use some positive communication skills, like I statements. So, hey, when this happened, I felt X, Y, Z. Um, it's a tool that we use in couples therapy to minimize defensiveness. Right. It's still how you know you're experiencing the person. Okay. 

 

Yeah, and I've, I've, I feel like I hate referencing movies too much 'cause I, but you do see that in, in some, you know, like actually more serious films that aren't like making fun of couples therapy or anything like that.

 

But the, the I statements, like you said, I've seen that before. I, I actually think it's, it's such an amazing technique because mm-hmm. Because it also helps create that self-awareness also helps you address, you know, how you are feeling. You're, and you're not just saying. You did this. Exactly. Yeah. And you're just saying when this happened.

 

It put me in a difficult position in the workplace. 'cause often these managers, they're middle managers. 

 

Yes. 

 

They're reporting to higher ups, um, which I know we'll dive into a little bit later. 

 

Mm-hmm. 

 

So I really, I really love that you brought that up. And self-awareness, like you said, it, it, it sounds simple, but it can be complicated, especially if it's not practic in everyday life.

 

Mm-hmm. 

 

Yeah, so at the start of the episode I did mention SHR M'S. HRX maturity model, and this is a big report, so we're really excited about it. Here at SHRM, it highlights how high maturity HR functions within organizations take a structured and proactive approach to optimizing key talent related areas such as employee experience and leadership and manager development, these organizations.

 

Often create personalized strategies for that engagement and development to also align closely with business goals. Now, in contrast on the lower and average maturity HR functions within organizations, they may handle leadership development on an informal or more of a reactive basis. While employee experience efforts might lack a cohesive strategy.

 

Kind of made this analogy before, uh, when we were talking about it, uh, behind the scenes is it's kind of like that hammer game in a carnival ride, right? Mm-hmm. Like, so you, you throw the hammer down and it goes up and it goes, oh, you're weak. And then it's, you know, throw the hammering down harder and it goes up and it might hit the bell.

 

That's kind of how I'm imagining this HR maturity model. It's like, where are you on the strength level? So I'm sharing all of this about our HR X maturity model just to help. Frame your response to some workplace scenarios. I'm about to give you centered on manager employee dynamics. So I'd love to get your input on how therapy-based tools and approaches can be used to support clear conflict resolution and build those healthier relationships within that organization.

 

Focus on the SHRM high maturity distinction as the end goal. So I know that was a lot of information, um, but let's just jump into the first scenario. You ready? 

 

Yes. 

 

Okay, perfect. So this first scenario, a manager observes ongoing tension within their team, including with direct reports. Before addressing the broader team dynamics, the manager wants to evaluate their own leadership approach to determine if any personal changes are needed.

 

What structured, let's say proactive instead of reactive steps. Mm-hmm. Can the manager take to self-assess and really identify those areas for their own improvement? Like you said, self-awareness. 

 

Yeah, well I, you know, I have to say I love that it's called like a high maturity model because Yeah, it is a very, it is a very emotionally mature process to look at a group of people, recognize that there is some tension and say, Hey.

 

What's my involvement here? Is there something here that I can look at in myself that, that requires a lot of humility and emotional awareness? Um, so that, you know, I'm probably gonna be a broken record here, but starting with the self, that's like my kind of cornerstone of my work, especially in relationships, is focus on the self because that's what's within our control.

 

So. For the manager, if they really wanted to, um, kind of take steps, it would be first exploring their own physical and emotional reactions. Uh, sometimes for folks naming their emotions is really hard. 

 

Mm-hmm. 

 

Um, they might just know that they feel bad, so I would even say like, start there. Good, bad. You know, and then it sounds simple, but it's It does.

 

Yeah. And we're not really given the tools as we go through childhood and adulthood. To understand our emotional reactions. So maybe I'm feeling bad in some way. Maybe there's a knot in my stomach. 

 

Mm-hmm. 

 

Maybe there's, my chest is tight. Okay. Well what is that telling me? So really exploring the body, um, and, you know, to, to give you some insight about how you're feeling about the situation.

 

Um. And then maybe asking yourself, what's coming up in my relationship legacy, like we talked about at the top of the episode. Does this remind me of another work experience? And I'm getting frustrated that this is happening again. Does this remind me of, you know, am I, do I, am I having, um, issues in my relationship at home?

 

And that's playing out how I show up at work? Mm-hmm. Um, so really exploring the relationship legacy and how it's. Impacting the ways that you're behaving and how your behavior's impacting. Right. 

 

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Identifying it. I remember, uh, a couple jobs of mine ago, I was dealing with like a, a, I was struggling with a, not a manager, but a colleague.

 

And I remember thinking, what does this feel like? And it felt like a kinda like high school bullying. Like I was, I was, I had this fear that like I was gonna be made fun of or something in the workplace, and I identified that and it helped. To me actually handled the person better and the person like actually ended up being a great person.

 

Mm-hmm. This person didn't really understand that it was coming off this way. Mm-hmm. So, but even identifying that really helped me. Feel brave enough to go into work and actually deal with it. Uh, so I love that you brought that up. Um, 

 

I, I love that example so much. 'cause it, it really happens. 

 

Mm-hmm. It does.

 

It does happen. Uh, okay, so jumping into the next scenario. Let's say an employee feels their contributions are not really being recognized during performance reviews, despite them meeting their goals, they raise the issue, but conversations with their managers don't really lead to meaningful change. So how can a structured, proactive therapy technique or techniques, um, help both the employee and manager here in order to, you know, build a more constructive feedback loop?

 

Yeah. So think starting with the employee, I might adapt something from, um, nonviolent communication. 

 

Mm-hmm. 

 

Um, which is a communication strategy that, that y'all can look up online that's really rich and there's a lot to learn. Okay. Um, but there's a few steps that you can go through. So. First make an observation, a need, and a concrete request.

 

Mm-hmm. So instead of just saying, my contributions aren't being recognized, may, which could be hard for manager to respond to because it might come off like an accusation rather than a request for behavior change. Right. Maybe saying something like, Hey, in our last few performance reviews, the projects I led weren't specifically mentioned.

 

Mm-hmm. Um, it's really important to me that my work is visible to you. Would you be willing to identify two to three specific contributions of mine before our next review? So there's an observation and need a specific concrete request, and that allows, um, the manager to actually say, okay, yeah, I'll do that specific thing.

 

Mm-hmm. 

 

If you're, you know, as, as the manager, then I think what I would do if you got that type of feedback from your employee is validate them. Mm-hmm. And acknowledge that that wasn't, that they maybe made the request and it didn't happen. Mm-hmm. So it's your responsibility to make sure that they feel heard.

 

Mm-hmm. So, you know, saying, verbalizing to them, Hey, I know you said that in the past. I hear you now. Um, what specific steps can I do differently to make this feel better to you? Um. Then on the flip side, if you know, you hear this feedback and you maybe notice negative reactions, explore what that is.

 

Mm-hmm. Are you feeling called out? Are you feeling defensive? Um, again, bringing in the concepts of regulation, of nervous system regulation. Are you good getting to this defensive fight, flight or freeze? When you hear that, okay, maybe take a. Um, slow down. We, my, my professor in grad school said that therapy is a slow down conversation and I just, I love applying that to relationships everywhere.

 

I like that too. Yeah. And, and it really brings back to the, the foundation of trust, the circle of trust, whatever you wanna call it. Um, because, and people do get anxious approaching their managers 'cause they're worried about how the person will react and, and also the managers in this tight position where they're worried about their own reaction, it coming off wrong.

 

So I definitely think, you know, that having that trust together, um, really changes. How they feel approaching, um, you know, the, the conversation, you know, you want psychological safety in the workplace. 

 

Yes. 

 

So I agree. I think that's a great point you made. So, jumping into our final scenario a little longer.

 

So let's picture a workplace that has limited access to professional development. Maybe it's budget reasons, inconsistent performance reviews, and. Few formal mechanisms for addressing conflict in this workplace. Specifically, employees often rely on informal conversations or workarounds to resolve their issues, which can lead to misunderstandings, frustration, even stagnation.

 

What structured proactive approaches inspired by your therapy techniques can these employees use to address this conflict and promote that healthier communication that we've been kind of talking about? Mm-hmm. 

 

Yeah. One of the most powerful tools in therapy that we use is. Naming patterns, making the unspoken spoken.

 

And it sounds simple, but I, I think that's part of the, the brilliance of this work. Mm-hmm. So if you notice that, let's say from the employee perspective, if, if you are engaging in some type of like back channel conversation, maybe venting in ways that aren't necessarily helpful, um, you know, different un unhelpful patterns, I think recognizing.

 

Your responsibility for contributing to that culture among your team is really, really powerful. Um, and then the same, you know, from the, the manager recognizing that pattern, maybe pointing it out to the individuals who are engaging in those behaviors in a, um, safe, nonjudgmental way. You know, so maybe don't call it out in a meeting, but have it be in a one-on-one or something.

 

Right. Um, and really reflecting on how. Your patterns, your behaviors are contributing to the environment and holding more responsibility. Not all, but more responsibility than the team members for reinforcing the environment or creating it. 

 

Yeah. Can I hold yourself to that little higher level, uh, for yourself?

 

Um, and we'd all be lying if we didn't say we, we never vented at work. Um, of course, I know I'd be lying. Uh, you know, we, we all do that. So it's very good to, you know, maintain that self-awareness and understand what you're saying can impact others because like we said, it's not just Im impacting the two people involved, it's impacting the whole team and maybe your organization, so, yeah.

 

Yeah. So. Each week, and I love this about our, uh, all things work episodes. We ask our audience to submit questions that they may have on the topic for the upcoming episode. And we had some great ones on how people managers can really build that trust that we've discussed and we're prayer broken relationships.

 

So are you ready to jump into some q and. 

 

Yes. So excited. 

 

Wonderful. So to our audience tuning in today, be sure you are subscribed to our newsletter. You'll find the signup link in our episode description. Your responses to our question of the week could be featured in an upcoming episode. All right, let's start with the first question.

 

This is fascia from Oklahoma, and apologies if I messed up that name. But f asked, based on your experience as a couple's therapist, what would you say are some of the most. Common challenges or patterns you would anticipate seeing in manager direct report relationships. 

 

I love this question. Me too. Um, it's so good.

 

And I think, you know, there's one specific pattern that I think is so common in relationships that the Gottman Couples Research Institute calls negative sentiment override. And it's a jargony term to basically just describe what, what happens when a relationship is deteriorated to the point where neutral or positive interactions are interpreted negatively.

 

Hmm. So let's say in, in, you know, in my world, it's like, um, hey, you didn't do the dishes. Simple observation. Right? Excuse me. You know, just like, really, wow, you're attacking me. I feel so right. Dramatizing it, but it's for, to make a point that that happens all the time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So if, if as a manager or employee or anyone in a workplace, um, you recognize.

 

There are some pretty neutral or positive interactions that are being interpreted as attacks, as negative criticism, or just negative in general. It's really important to address that quickly because it suggests that the relationship trust, as we've been talking about, has been distorted. So that one, the person is really seeing everything negatively.

 

Um. And so the intervention for this is to have better conversations about the conflict, step back and really deliberately address the, the ruptures that have happened, um, and work towards what we call assuming positive intention. Mm-hmm. Um, and that might require managing some defensiveness that might require some difficult conversations about how we got to this place.

 

Um, but I think it's really important to address within, you know, a professional. Context. 

 

Yes. We do have to keep in mind, you know, we're, we are talking about this, but in, in a professional setting. Mm-hmm. And so a lot of our questions here are really based on, you know, the topic of trust. But this one's really interesting.

 

Julie from Washington DC asked when trust is broken on the team on. Everyone's part. How can you support slash motivate a leader to take the reins when they also still don't trust their team? 

 

Yeah, 

 

that is a really good question. I love this one. 

 

Great question. And I think I first wanna start off with, with wanting to explore why was the trust broken, uh, particularly on the manager's part.

 

You know, was this something straightforward, like mm-hmm. The team wasn't. Carrying out their work responsibilities, that, that feels like a, um, a, a different way to address it than if there's some sort of interpersonal conflict or something that is more in like the, the realm of relating to one another rather than work responsibilities.

 

Right. 

 

Um, so if it is related to work responsibilities as the, as the manager. I might be curious, you know, why are you mistrusting your team if they're not, you know, completing their work responsibilities? Is it just like, oh, they're not doing their job and I need to carry out, um, appropriate consequences?

 

Or am I taking this personally? Does it feel like they are personally, you know, I've been such a good manager to them and, and they're not doing what they said they would and that hurts me. And maybe exploring why is that? And I'm just hypothesizing some. Scenarios here. Um, but I think a, a concept that I would want to explore is, um, secure attachment.

 

The idea that trust doesn't have to be assumed or declared like in one conversation. If there is a culturally wide, um, issue with trust on the team, you're gonna have to repair that. You know, consistently over time, I like to define trust in relationships as repeated behavior over time. Pretty simple, right?

 

So if I, knowing that like building trust is gonna come with consistently, um, honoring my commitment to myself and to my team, and having that kind of be a mutual agreement among all of us. 

 

Right. Not just a one and done. It takes time. 

 

Yeah. 

 

And it takes time for self-awareness as well. So, jumping into our final question, uh, kind of more of the manager side here.

 

Mimi from Connecticut asked the biggest challenges being in a position of authority and having no authority to make decisions. Mm-hmm. This is such a good point to make. So many people are in this role. How can a manager build trust? With their team when they hold a leadership title, but they actually lack those, that authority to make those important decisions, and the team is fully aware of these limitations.

 

Mm-hmm. 

 

Great questions. Such a tight situation to be in. 

 

Yeah. It's so hard and I just wanna acknowledge how hard it is because you are responsible for all of these relationships. You wanna make decisions, but you also wanna act in the organization's interest and not like. Badmouth the mission, so of, of the larger org.

 

So I really just wanna acknowledge that. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I, I think I first just wanna acknowledge, you know, as the manager. Explore the feelings that are coming up for you. I've, I've worked with this dynamic many times before, and often when people are in this situation, they feel things like frustration or powerlessness, maybe it's triggering even feelings of shame that they can't do more than they want to do, especially if they're close with their team.

 

Um, so bringing in kind of some of the like nervous system education. I might explore how someone in this situation might feel stuck. They might literally feel frozen. Right. As if you saw a snake on a hike and you just freeze up. Right? That's what our brains tell us is happening. 

 

Right. 

 

But we just don't have the sophistication to know the difference mm-hmm.

 

In certain structures. So, um, I would help them do some, you know, I would encourage that person to explore their reactions on the physical level, explore how they feel stuck, um, and then. Once they have a better understanding of their responses, how they're reacting to the situation, I bring in the idea of role integrity.

 

Um, you know, understanding that like authentic leadership doesn't require institutional power necessarily. Um, it requires honesty about your constraints. 

 

Yes. 

 

Um, so I think I would, you know, and obviously there's gonna be a lot of particulars to this person's. Organization that I can't speak to now, but maybe seeing something like, yeah, I don't have the authority to change this right now, and I see how that's frustrating, but here's what I can do and here's what I can't do.

 

Mm-hmm. So just being honest about the power that you have and validating the frustration for your team members that may be coming up. 

 

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was about to say acknowledging that frustration really goes so far. I mean, it, it, it's, it's, um. You know, empathizing with the other people, it's, it's making them feel like they're heard.

 

Mm-hmm. 

 

Even if they feel like they, nothing can be done about the situation. The fact that they feel heard and not dismissed, that slightest thing can change the dynamic immensely. And I'm, I'm speaking from the employee perspective obviously. Um, and because we do. Feel for those people managers. We know that they're, they're often in tight positions, but yeah, that honesty can really take you far.

 

So I appreciate you bringing that up. That was such a great point, and well, that's all we got for today. Uh, Olivia, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts today. We learned so much. Just kind of diving into, you know, the personal aspect of this, but really the complexities of the workplace and, and making sure you're maintaining, um, that professional attitude and, and, and the work environment.

 

So thank you so much for walking us through, you know, these techniques today. 

 

Thank you so much. This was so fun to, to think through and talk through. 

 

Absolutely. All right. That's all for this week. We'll catch you next time.